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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Busy Geoff
« on: October 27, 2007, 12:55:50 PM »
For those who haven't read it yet, Geoff pens his defense of the ODG's here;

http://www.golfdom.com/golfdom/Industry+News/Lets-Not-Rewrite-the-Classics-Yet/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/464879

On aother note,
Geoff apparently has addressed an assembly of GD panelists at Pinehurst.

Can anyone share ?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 05:08:09 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2007, 01:15:03 PM »
I would only dispute his last contention, that sympathetic restoration work cannot be lucrative.  There are some people making a lot of money out of it, and there are a lot who are trying ... including Geoff.

wsmorrison

Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2007, 01:20:11 PM »
Mike Malone cashed in a good share of his retirement fund to purchase the last known toilet seat to cradle William Flynn's butt.  Who is Geoff Shackelford to devalue that historic artifact?  Dammit all  8)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 04:24:11 PM by Wayne Morrison »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2007, 01:21:21 PM »
Mike Malone cashed in a good share of his retirement fund to purchase the last known toilet seat to caress William Flynn's butt.  Who is Geoff Shackelford to devalue that historic artifact?  Dammit all  8)


Wayne I just knew you'd be ALL OVER that statement! ;)
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2007, 04:14:02 PM »
Nice article, thanks for the link.

I'm embarrassed to admit I haven't kept up with Geoff's site as well as I should have - embarrassed because it provides a veritable fount of information.

I'm hard pressed to criticise him or anyone else who tries to make a living from sympathetic restorations. There may be money to be made, but there much easier ways to make money, if that's your goal. Hell, I think it's much easier to sell your own "good" ideas than bowing down to the ideas of the original architect.

The one thing in restoration that rings true was pointed out by Jim Sullivan (JESII, one of the most astute posters on here, in case you somehow missed it):

It seems in retrospect that older courses were designed to be most challenging to the top level of golfers. Restoring their shot values may provide the most challenge for the greatest number of golfers, but does it restore the architect's intent?

Wish I knew the answer to that one.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2007, 04:47:37 PM »
Geoff makes some good points but often I have have seen some of the "sympathetic restoration" become a complete redo of several million dollars where it could have been done for $500,000.  I have never had a problem with architects that have their own work out there also doing restorations.....but the "restoration expert" stuff gets expensive....why?  You figure.....architects and restoration experts are paid a percentage of construction.....
Also would the ODG's rahter have experience or historical knowledge working on their projects.....
REMEMBER.....only a few of the old ones were worth keeping anyway....the rest is hype.... ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2007, 05:57:01 PM »
Geoff makes some good points but often I have have seen some of the "sympathetic restoration" become a complete redo of several million dollars where it could have been done for $500,000.  I have never had a problem with architects that have their own work out there also doing restorations.....but the "restoration expert" stuff gets expensive....why?  You figure.....architects and restoration experts are paid a percentage of construction.....
Also would the ODG's rahter have experience or historical knowledge working on their projects.....
REMEMBER.....only a few of the old ones were worth keeping anyway....the rest is hype.... ;D ;D ;D

I both agree and disagree with some of your anecdotes here. But you know that! ;)

Quote
Geoff makes some good points but often I have have seen some of the "sympathetic restoration" become a complete redo of several million dollars where it could have been done for $500,000.

I couldn't agree more. Restoration University is proof of this.

Quote
I have never had a problem with architects that have their own work out there also doing restorations.....but the "restoration expert" stuff gets expensive....why?  You figure.....architects and restoration experts are paid a percentage of construction.....

I agree and disagree completely. The Restoration Expert stuff is utilized for one reason--to further sell the project. Most stuff if rarely if ever followed in my experience--always giving the reason why it can't be done, but we had an expert on board to validate the changes. It's smoke screen in a lot of cases.  But then you have certain people that will go out of their way to get as much information that is possible, and their are architects willing to listen. Unfortunately most of those architects are dealing with issues--such as committee members; club members, owners etc. that don't want restoration at all, especially when you see just how cool the original hole used to be when compared to the newer version. This is where the restoration movement rears its ugly head--the resistance by those who either want to leave their mark; or can only think of how the changes will affect their own personal golf game.

Mike, it has been my experience that more time and effort is done in this for just the passion of seeing something once so beautiful, renewed then money, fame or fortune gained. I speak from experience.

Quote
Also would the ODG's rather have experience or historical knowledge working on their projects.....

Hopefully both, but this is a hypothetical question. I honestly do believe that the so-called ODG's would be appalled if they saw their courses today. Not because f what they have regressed to, but probably more how the entire sport has lost it's soul. It's original soul. This doesn't mean technology or advancement isn't good; it just means it has to be with-in reason. Just like the people who made the changes to begin with--the ones who destroyed some of this really great original work. They were simply out of control/out of their minds.

I know this because I've read about it several times in their own words, shortly after the fall and at the beginnings of the second world war.

Quote
REMEMBER.....only a few of the old ones were worth keeping anyway....the rest is hype....

This is the portion I disagree with the most. Who is to determine what is and isn't worth saving? What happens if you have a world class golf hole on a site that only has 17 other adequate holes? How does one know EXACTLY what was once there? Whose going to do that type of research to prove it was worthy or of note?

About two years ago, we had a scholarly sort, offer the most convincing evidence that George Crump died by a self-inflicted gunshot. We also have had one architect mention to one of our participants that he found some old drawings from William Flynn in his barn. We've had Southern California better explained--as a site for some absolutely wonderful golf courses that were the end result of years of study from the guys who learned from the creative hand of nature; and we even had greens committees come to us seeking knowledge of their courses; they proper way they should be maintained, as well as the need for tree removal to retain their once classic features.

To be able to say what golf course deserves it and what doesn't, in my opinion just isn't right. Thee are just too many great golf holes in the universe that don't need such a final judgment. But also, there are a lot of mediocre golf holes that don't deserve it either. and that's my point--look a the holes, not the courses.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2007, 06:08:12 PM »
Geoff makes some good points but often I have have seen some of the "sympathetic restoration" become a complete redo of several million dollars where it could have been done for $500,000.  I have never had a problem with architects that have their own work out there also doing restorations.....but the "restoration expert" stuff gets expensive....why?  You figure.....architects and restoration experts are paid a percentage of construction.....
Also would the ODG's rahter have experience or historical knowledge working on their projects.....
REMEMBER.....only a few of the old ones were worth keeping anyway....the rest is hype.... ;D ;D ;D

I both agree and disagree with some of your anecdotes here. But you know that! ;)

Quote
Geoff makes some good points but often I have have seen some of the "sympathetic restoration" become a complete redo of several million dollars where it could have been done for $500,000.

I couldn't agree more. Restoration University is proof of this.

Quote
I have never had a problem with architects that have their own work out there also doing restorations.....but the "restoration expert" stuff gets expensive....why?  You figure.....architects and restoration experts are paid a percentage of construction.....

I agree and disagree completely. The Restoration Expert stuff is utilized for one reason--to further sell the project. Most stuff if rarely if ever followed in my experience--always giving the reason why it can't be done, but we had an expert on board to validate the changes. It's smoke screen in a lot of cases.  But then you have certain people that will go out of their way to get as much information that is possible, and their are architects willing to listen. Unfortunately most of those architects are dealing with issues--such as committee members; club members, owners etc. that don't want restoration at all, especially when you see just how cool the original hole used to be when compared to the newer version. This is where the restoration movement rears its ugly head--the resistance by those who either want to leave their mark; or can only think of how the changes will affect their own personal golf game.

Mike, it has been my experience that more time and effort is done in this for just the passion of seeing something once so beautiful, renewed then money, fame or fortune gained. I speak from experience.

Quote
Also would the ODG's rather have experience or historical knowledge working on their projects.....

Hopefully both, but this is a hypothetical question. I honestly do believe that the so-called ODG's would be appalled if they saw their courses today. Not because f what they have regressed to, but probably more how the entire sport has lost it's soul. It's original soul. This doesn't mean technology or advancement isn't good; it just means it has to be with-in reason. Just like the people who made the changes to begin with--the ones who destroyed some of this really great original work. They were simply out of control/out of their minds.

I know this because I've read about it several times in their own words, shortly after the fall and at the beginnings of the second world war.

Quote
REMEMBER.....only a few of the old ones were worth keeping anyway....the rest is hype....

This is the portion I disagree with the most. Who is to determine what is and isn't worth saving? What happens if you have a world class golf hole on a site that only has 17 other adequate holes? How does one know EXACTLY what was once there? Whose going to do that type of research to prove it was worthy or of note?

About two years ago, we had a scholarly sort, offer the most convincing evidence that George Crump died by a self-inflicted gunshot. We also have had one architect mention to one of our participants that he found some old drawings from William Flynn in his barn. We've had Southern California better explained--as a site for some absolutely wonderful golf courses that were the end result of years of study from the guys who learned from the creative hand of nature; and we even had greens committees come to us seeking knowledge of their courses; they proper way they should be maintained, as well as the need for tree removal to retain their once classic features.

To be able to say what golf course deserves it and what doesn't, in my opinion just isn't right. Thee are just too many great golf holes in the universe that don't need such a final judgment. But also, there are a lot of mediocre golf holes that don't deserve it either. and that's my point--look a the holes, not the courses.
Tommy,
I don't know how to break the post out like you did so forgive ......
I don't really have issue with most of your points but I think you think I am referring to historians as "restoration experts".....I am referring to the cottage industry that has evolved whereby there are guys doing this work that have never done a course of their own.....

Quote:
REMEMBER.....only a few of the old ones were worth keeping anyway....the rest is hype....  you are correct for many courses but stop for a minute and realize just how much junk is out there.....I am talking of places where no one would have a problem making the call...not borderline courses.

Take care
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2007, 06:34:05 PM »
Mike, Yes, that is what I thought you were referring to. My bad...


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2007, 07:10:42 PM »
While we have you two on this thread...

What was Kid Rock doing with Bula this last week?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2007, 07:37:15 PM »
That's a good question.

He better not be having any of my grits, otherwise I'll be making the rounds over at Pam Anderson's!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2007, 08:14:30 PM »
That's a good question.

He better not be having any of my grits, otherwise I'll be making the rounds over at Pam Anderson's!
He left bula a $300 tip (true) and she put something on him that ajax could not take off......
I guarantee you he will be back.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2007, 08:49:45 PM »
Leave it up to KR to know how to get both the girls and the grits.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2007, 08:53:52 PM »
I trust that the catch basin remark was directed at me!  (The new Golfdom is here.....The new Golfdom is here!)  I think Mike Young should feel honored to be an inspiration for the column as well!  It may be just me, but is this just version 487 of Geoff’s "Modern golf course architects are no damn good" column? (Except the select few)

Here, in David Letterman Top Ten style, are my questions about the article that I think bear legitimate discussion are:

10.   Who has determined that Augusta leads the way in courses most people would want to have gone back?  (I just reread Sam Byrdy's book and I say thumbs down to the original version vs any subsequent version, including the current one)

9.   Where is the list of courses that has regretted their decisions to modernize?  Even for courses that have recently restored, I am not sure they are going to say 50 years of club history is wasted time on a "crappy" course.  They probably enjoyed the maintenance savings and playability from their removal of duffer’s headaches for years, even if they have now restored them.
 
8.   Is there any study showing that either old or new design styles are more attractive to members or an aide to marketing membership sales?  I think there are several courses whose membership sales or rounds have risen with a new look, including restorations where the image of the “new” bunkers with clean sand, defined edges, greens with smooth new turf, etc., would be impressive if styled in the original style or a new one.
 
7.   For that matter, are there published "strict restoration guidelines?"

6.   Does he presume that every total renovation makes the course tougher, and can he back that up?
 
5.   Is it only restorers who have to answer to angry club members or does any golf course architect have more trouble answering to 300 owners vs. 1?  And, if only restorers do answer to angry mobs, doesn’t that confirm my point above, that club members may not believe in restorations, and that's why they don't happen more?

4.   Does a golf course architect who recommends more changes than might be dictated by ‘strict restoration standards” but who agonized through the decision and evaluated all the factors get the same sympathy from Geoff for those decisions?
 
3.      When a historian or restoration expert is called in to do extensive study, is there any real expectation that the report will say anything other than "restore" even if in reality, the course is No. 399 out of Ross's portfolio of 400?  

2.       Do I expect a mutal fund salesman to recommend anything other than a mutual fund, and particularly one that his company markets, so he gets the highest commission?)  Geoff implies modernization gca's run up costs.  Mike Young implies restorationists do.  Is any type of specialty within the gca field really any more or less immune to this type of accusation?

1.      Why didn't I write the William Flynn toilet seat joke?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2007, 09:04:16 PM »
Jeff,
You made me go back and read the article.....
 it says  "If you can't design like 'em, bash 'em."

I don't think I have ever said I could not design like them....I just bash them anyway..... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2007, 09:45:03 PM »
Mike,

No need for bashing, really, by usems or themens....... :)

I do think that in many ways, Geoff is saying the same things you often say here, but, as postulated in questions 8 and 9, thinks the bias should be towards restoration of any classic course.  (You might debate what is a classic, of course!)

I just thought of another question - is any course really worthy of restoration to day one?  I mean really, its there to be enjoyed, and if some feature doesn't give enjoyment, should we save it for history's sake?  Determining what is enjoyment is, of course, the tricky part.  Geoff seems to assume that golfers enjoy the old style better, and many do.  And many more just don't care one way or the other in the global sense (which, as a gca actually disturbs me as much as anyone here!) and some prefer more visual excitement than the old courses had, or evolved to.

Oh well, its off to watch a late night hockey game on TV, which leads to my last question -

Which has more fights - hockey or golf club atlas.com? ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2007, 09:47:00 PM »
Tommy N, hope all is well.  BTW, what is Restoration University? ;)

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2007, 09:49:26 PM »
Jeff B and Mike:

I've got just one question for you both:  do you EVER think it's the right call to restore a course?

I would agree with you that it's not ALWAYS the right decision, and I've consulted at clubs where we made the decision to change, as well as clubs where we thought it was right to restore.  But the two of you act as if it's NEVER right, and that is as silly as saying that it's always right.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2007, 09:50:42 PM »
And to Jeff specifically:

If you had it to do over it again, would you blow up Perry Maxwell's first set of greens?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2007, 11:53:06 PM »
Tom D,

Of course I do, but think its silly to think every GA course should be restored, which is the sentiment I think I hear sometimes. As noted, Geoff S did say there are tough decisions to make all along the way.

It does raise an interesting philosophical question, though. If we admit that golf courses evolve, sometimes through nature and sometimes through the hand of man, it would be just as valid to philosophically "go with the flow" and presume that it usually evolves upward to its best form, much as Darwin presumed that evolution improved species than it would to believe that the original gca got it perfect, no?  In that context, if there are ill advised changes, smart people will recognize them and change them to something better, at least eventually.  Maybe some restorations do just that.  

And maybe some renovations that dare to change a few or more than a few things improve the course even more than a strict restoration would.  In any project, it should be more about the course than the gca.  Even Geoff alludes to that, and rightly so.  

As to the Maxwell greens, I think I would like a mulligan to do that project over again, but in fact, the Maxwell greens were torn out by the club in (if I recall correctly) 1956.  Those club designed greens were replaced on the front nine by Dick Nugent (with Jim Engh in the field) in 198something.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2007, 01:27:57 AM »
Jeff, Restoration U. and Remodel U. are the same as USC and USC. (University of Southern California and University of South Carolina) ;)

My bad!

Hope all is well too.

Jim Nugent

Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2007, 02:46:17 AM »

It does raise an interesting philosophical question, though. If we admit that golf courses evolve, sometimes through nature and sometimes through the hand of man, it would be just as valid to philosophically "go with the flow" and presume that it usually evolves upward to its best form, much as Darwin presumed that evolution improved species than it would to believe that the original gca got it perfect, no?

Darwin's theory of evolution does not say all movement is forward.  Along the way there are plenty of mis-steps, road bumps and dead-ends.  Progress, when it comes, results from random mutations.  

Social movements are similar, IMO.  Communism gripped Russia, Eastern Europe and other parts of the world for many decades.  Was that an example of evolving upward to its best form?  I strongly believe no, and that the world paid a heavy price to learn what doesn't work.  

I don't know if this is true of golf course architecture, but since you raised the philosophical question, there could be that possibility.  


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2007, 06:38:34 AM »
Mike,

No need for bashing, really, by usems or themens....... :)

I do think that in many ways, Geoff is saying the same things you often say here, but, as postulated in questions 8 and 9, thinks the bias should be towards restoration of any classic course.  (You might debate what is a classic, of course!)

I just thought of another question - is any course really worthy of restoration to day one?  I mean really, its there to be enjoyed, and if some feature doesn't give enjoyment, should we save it for history's sake?  Determining what is enjoyment is, of course, the tricky part.  Geoff seems to assume that golfers enjoy the old style better, and many do.  And many more just don't care one way or the other in the global sense (which, as a gca actually disturbs me as much as anyone here!) and some prefer more visual excitement than the old courses had, or evolved to.

Oh well, its off to watch a late night hockey game on TV, which leads to my last question -

Which has more fights - hockey or golf club atlas.com? ;D

Jeff

I don't have any answers for your questions except to say that old grudges probably last loner on GCA.com than among hockey players.  

As I see it, the big problem with taking out unusual features is that golf courses become homogenized.  Unusual features, good or bad, should in the main be kept for the sake of diversity.  A course can only be as good as the land allows.  The reason we have so many similar courses is because the land chosen for so  many projects is similar.  So archies come up with the same formulas to add interest.  As the French say - Whalah, a golf course!

The deal over Cruden Bay is what changed my opinion.  Being a member of another unique course I wondered what my feelings would be if quite significant "improvements" were to be made - even in the hands of sympathetic archie.  My gut reaction is to say hands off!  I was in favour of alterations for improvement at Cruden Bay, but now I am not convinced.  Sure, the course might be a bit better (I don't know), but a bit of Cruden Bay's character will be exchanged for a more homogenized course.  Is this improving the concept of golf architecture or not?  For better or worse, Cruden Bay is quite unique in the world of golf and it is worth preserving for this and the idea that architecture thrives on diversity.  

Ciao    
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2007, 08:02:42 AM »
Jeff B and Mike:

I've got just one question for you both:  do you EVER think it's the right call to restore a course?

I would agree with you that it's not ALWAYS the right decision, and I've consulted at clubs where we made the decision to change, as well as clubs where we thought it was right to restore.  But the two of you act as if it's NEVER right, and that is as silly as saying that it's always right.

Jeff,
You are correct...bashing...is not a good choice of words....I should have used the word..messin with em...

Tom,
Of course there are places that should be restored BUT my issue has always been when you see a course that has not had the routing altered, the greens altered or the bunkers altered .....all changes have been within the complexes whether it be sand lines, green edges, etc and some guy comes in...tell them he spoke to Ol Donald and he would have done it diffrent so bring in the bulldozers....I EVEN THINK SOME OLD COURSEs THAT SHOULD NOT BE RESTORED SHOULD BE RESTORED....I JUST DON'T THINK MATTERS SHOULD BE COMPLICATED.... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Busy Geoff
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2007, 09:43:42 AM »
JIm,

You said, "Darwin's theory of evolution does not say all movement is forward.  Along the way there are plenty of mis-steps, road bumps and dead-ends.  Progress, when it comes, results from random mutations. "

I agree and that's why I said "eventually."  Given the outside forces (like highway relocations, change in greens committees, etc.) at clubs, I think that replicates the randomness of nature.  Admittedly, few members want to wait 1000 years to get the course to the highest form, if they are paying dues now, so the "long view" of course evolution isn't truly apt in practicality as it is theory.

Sean,

Interesting that your take is on "unusal features" as I was thinking more of the "typical problems" facing courses as they age, like length, urban encroachment, need for more parking, other facilities, etc.  I tend to agree with the need to keep unusual features in a course. On my new designs, I have put in some unusual features for that purpose.

I wonder why so many people want to make their course more like others, rather than less like others.  

Again, I doubt clubs worry about the oveall diversity of courses in a region or world as much as giving their club a calling card that helps fill and maintain membership lists.  Apparently, they think a watered down version of Winged Foot, or a TPC seem like a better alternative than a course with some unusual holes that is unique.  

But none of the above necessarily contradicts my premise that doing what is best for the course is what should be done, given its present circumstances, even if judgements used are faulty sometimes.  

Perhaps the best case for restorations at mid portfolio clubs of a Ross or Tillie, etc. is that in case of a tie vote on what is best, we revert to the original plan intent.  That theory alone would drive restoration at most clubs, since many can't agree on anything!

Just some random pre coffee musings on a Sunday morning! :)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach