[Tony Petersen]

I had  the pleasure of playing Dacotah Ridge while back in MN  this summer and had a blast and would recommend it to anyone who happens to end up in Morton, MN  

Is it on par with Brauers work in NE MN? No.

Is it in the same class as the MN Greats i.e. Interlochen, Minikahda, Golden Valley, Somerset, etc? No.

Is it a fun course with incredible maintenance that 90% of the golfing public would rave about? Yes.

Seems to me that Rees is somewhat of a modern-day version of Bendelow in that he is bringing that game of golf to the masses. That being said, his designs always seems to have that polished, franchised look that I am not a big fan of but look INCREDIBLE in marketing materials and the like

[ward peyronnin]

My eleven year old and i trekked the first two rounds of the Masters in "01 i believe. We also played Black Creek on the way thru Chatanooga. At that point he had played five top one hundred course that year from Victoria to Caledonia.

We played Cuscawilla immediately after Augusta , much of it in rain and with two guys from San Diego using Kmart clubs and more interested in what the lot prices were.

When i asked Henry which course he preferred during the round he immediately chose C&C and i asked why. " The bunkers are so much cooler Dad" was the reply.

Who do you trust more; an 11 year old purist or Mr. Jones?

[Michael Dugger]

Who do you trust more; an 11 year old purist or Mr. Jones?

Ah, well....harump.....obviously an 11 yr old doesn't understand golf course architecture is not done in a vacuum!

I mean, ah......err, like was he aware of the financial situation of the Black Creek developer?

There are always environmental restriction preventing designers from doing what they want!  

[Mike_Young]

I will wager the Black Creek bunkers exist much longer than the cusco bunkers.....any takers?

[ward peyronnin]

My apologies guys the comparison was between Augusta and Cuscowilla. We both liked BC very much. My point is that to the untainted mind of a golf "virgin" the bunker look C&C achieved at Cuscowilla was immediately more appealing than the crisp eye candy that Augusta has opted for and by reference apparently Mr. Jones wishes to preserve a place for.

[B. Mogg]

Depends on the site. The shaggy bunkers are appropriate on sandy sites but are could be a maintenace nightmare on clay and/or high rainfall sites, where any small sand flash can get punished.

I would think that over time shaggy bunkers would tend towards smoother edges while the smoother edged bunkers tend towards shagginess (the scooby-do theory). I would have thought that more the concern on windy, sandy sites would be the bunkers would have tendancy toward increasing in size over time?

[Bill_McBride]

I will wager the Black Creek bunkers exist much longer than the cusco bunkers.....any takers?

Mike, you've mentioned those bunkers at Cuscowilla in the past.  Does their crew have to rebuild some of them every year after the rainy season?  Just curious....the bunkers do seem to get a lot of drainage right through them.  Do you think they hold up as well as they do because of the heavy clay soil?  It sure wouldn't work in sand!

[paul cowley]

I did recently hear of one reason... It may be Bobby's firm but those employed by the Jones firm are NOT allowed to post in this forum.
Clearly they read it and forbidding them from posting shows a lack of testicular fortitude, IMO.

How so Adam?

I know of another in the golf industry that seems to discourage posting on here by his team...I understand it. What about that approach lacks balls?

If the above comments are true.....I would ask any of those involved in any golf course design company to email me and I will post any comments....your anonymity will be assured ....trust me.

cowley@bellsouth.net

[Mike_Cirba]

Arcadian Shores is a good course.
Belle Terre & Wild Wing are gone, covered in condos.
Waterway Hills is Robert Trent Jones.

Michael,

I really enjoyed Arcadian Shores....saw the biggest gator of my life next to the 13th? green there...talk about pressure putting!

I know about the two defunct courses...Gator Hole is another of his near you that bit the dust.   Sad to see any course go.

Waterway Hills he did for his dad, although his dad gets "official" credit, much like Montauk Downs.

[Kyle Harris]

I dunno Mike...

If three Doak 2 courses went NLE for every Doak 4 course built... I think golf as a whole would be a better game.

[Mike_Cirba]

I dunno Mike...

If three Doak 2 courses went NLE for every Doak 4 course built... I think golf as a whole would be a better game.

Kyle,

I owe you a phone call.   I'll try to catch up tomorrow.

Call me crazy, but I believe there is a great big place for Doak 2's, as long as they aren't priced as Doak 7's.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Christ Corey I was just about to post the very same question.  I think the driver was owner Lowell S. who likes the looks of Friar's Head and Sand Hills.  

Who is re-doing Atlantics bunkers - anybody know?  I'm not sure but I don't think it is Rees.

Then you'd be wrong.

Rees remains the consulting architect at Atlantic.

Others are also involved, and, Atlantic keeps improving.

[Patrick_Mucci]

You imply a very good point, Kyle.  Are courses built these days to look good from aerial photographs or to play well on the ground?

Kyle & Rich,

I couldn't agree more.

It's what the golfer sees, not what the Goodyear Blimp sees.

[Mike Sweeney]

Christ Corey I was just about to post the very same question.  I think the driver was owner Lowell S. who likes the looks of Friar's Head and Sand Hills.  

Who is re-doing Atlantics bunkers - anybody know?  I'm not sure but I don't think it is Rees.

Then you'd be wrong.

Rees remains the consulting architect at Atlantic.

Others are also involved, and, Atlantic keeps improving.

He was also very much involved in the changes at Nantucket.

Lets not forget GCA favorite Gil Hanse got the boot at Inniscrone when they decided to make changes.

[paul cowley]

Mike,

He's trying, huh?  

What exactly do those bunkers do on that hole?  Seriously..

Never played it. I am guessing that is the forward tee, and that there is a back and to the right tee.

This makes me hope that none of my/our stuff gets posted here....this is far from a bad hole.....good job Rees et al and I don't blame you from shying away from this site.

Some one please take my up on my anonymous post offer....I've got your back.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

He's trying, huh?  

What exactly do those bunkers do on that hole?  Seriously..

Never played it. I am guessing that is the forward tee, and that there is a back and to the right tee.

This makes me hope that none of my/our stuff gets posted here....this is far from a bad hole.....good job Rees et al and I don't blame you from shying away from this site.

Some one please take my up on my anonymous post offer....I've got your back.

Paul,

No one said it's a bad hole.  In fact, it looks pretty good.

But, for a guy who seems to be somewhat miffed that the whole "natural look" bunker thing passed him by, enough so to criticize it in GD, he certainly seems to be "trying" for that look here.

I also asked Sweeney why he thought the bunkers were there, because part of Rees's point seems to be that;

1) They are hard to maintain (costly)
2) They are over the top and superfluous.

Well, in this pic, I see bunkers set pretty far back but seemingly starting about 100 yards from the tee and then pretty much extending for the next 200 yards or so to the green.   Of course, it wouldn't be Rees if he didn't also include a wall of mounds that they are set into the whole left side, but hey, that's his gig.

My question on the hole is whether the bunkers are close enough to play to really make much of a difference to either the guy laying up with an iron on the 304 (from the tips) yard hole, or the guy trying to chase driver there.  

And, even if they are, unless the hole is cut way over on the left, it appears that the green is very broad and that the second from a bunker wouldn't cause a whole lot of consternation on a par four.

So, in my opinion, I think those bunkers are mostly there because;

1) Rees is going for "the look"
2) They are "Splashy"
3) They are eye candy with some playability on the hole.

Mostly in that order.

On that land form, if that bowl short right is the depth I think it is, it might be a real nice spot for no bunkers, but...

this is all opinion.

Sorry if you think it's unfair, but Rees is the one who criticized other's work and style as seemingly excessive and costly and tough to maintain and I just think that reeks of hypocrisy given his heavily shaped, row-of-mounds, minefield-of-bunkers style over the years.

[Mike Sweeney]

Sorry if you think it's unfair, but Rees is the one who criticized other's work and style as seemingly excessive and costly and I just think that reeks of hypocrisy given his style over the years.

_________________________

 "Form follows function," he said. "Every golf course with splashy bunkers should not make the (100 Greatest) list."

__________________________

Mike,

Please remove yourself from the Wardian School of Reading Comprehention! The quote above is what HE said. Everthing else in Clayman's initial post was from the author interpreting his quote, who by the way may have been a Ward Graduate student! He did not criticize any architects work. He criticized the rating panels for becoming too one dimentional, and the form following function would appear to be a maintanance question.

Why is Rees not allowed to evolve. Ever see some of Kelly Moran's early work when he was with von Hagge? They stripted the land flat and built it back up.



Doak evolved away from Dye. Kelly evolved away from von Hagge. Why can't Rees evolve away from his father, and yes even away from himself?

By the way there is a cool website called Golf Club Atlas where they talk about NEW RECENT golf course openings and resotorations.

On the one and a million chance that we can work out logistics, I say we make a trip to The Golf Club of Cape Cod next season.

PS. Not to steal from The Mucci School, but that picture above that you posted is cut off in too many places to render an opinion on the hole, IMHO.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

He's certainly allowed to evolve and I applaud that.  I always make a point to see his newer courses...some like Olde Kinderhook are tremendous...others like Huntsville are really good (although I believe a missed opportunity in some ways), and others like LedgeRock border on unplayable.

Rees has been designing for almost 40 years and to be honest, a lot of it is of a style that I don't like at all.   I'm GLAD he seems to be moving more into a style that is a bit easier on the eye.

It appears his brother is doing some of his best work in years recently, so I hope to see Rees coming up with his best stuff, as well.

Would love to see GC of CC with you.  

[Mike Sweeney]

To the point on maintenance costs of the native transitional look. Old Wild Horse has been in the ground for nearly a decade now and would be a worthy example for these discussion purposes.

Paging Josh Mahar

How does poor old WH stay afloat with such a low green fee and those pesky, costly, splashy bunkers?

I love Wild Horse, but as I was recently educated by ODG Architect Mike Young, you simply can't compare a place like Wild Horse. In the South they could not even grow what is natural to Wild Horse no matter what the price. Obviously with cost of labor being a fraction of where the majority of Rees' courses are located, it is not a relevant comparison.

I would be interested in a comparison of maintenance cost of Old Sandwich vs GC of Cape Cod by Rees. Theye are in similar locations with the Rees course being closer to Vineyard Sound/Ocean.

[Mike Sweeney]

Would love to see GC of CC with you.  

We will be there around July 4th, and when I get my son's camp dates after New Year's, I will circle back. Nearby Woods Hole has been on the Sweeney/Moore list for sometime, so perhaps a 36 holer of old and new!

[Mike_Cirba]

Would love to see GC of CC with you.  

We will be there around July 4th, and when I get my son's camp dates after New Year's, I will circle back. Nearby Woods Hole has been on the Sweeney/Moore list for sometime, so perhaps a 36 holer of old and new!

That would be really cool, Mike.   I've only been to the Cape once and loved it.

[Adam Clayman]

Sween, Interesting you challenge Mike's comprehension skills and then make a statement like this...

Please remove yourself from the Wardian School of Reading Comprehention! The quote above is what HE said. Everthing else in Clayman's initial post was from the author interpreting his quote, who by the way may have been a Ward Graduate student! He did not criticize any architects work. He criticized the rating panels for becoming too one dimentional, and the form following function would appear to be a maintanance question.

Ward Graduate student?

initial post

From the Golf Digest article on their recent summit.

Quote:
Jones, who has remodeled Pinehurst No. 2 and his own No. 7, not to mention several Open venues, seemed to agree that this devotion was cosmetic. "Form follows function," he said. He criticized an almost fad-like return to "splashy" old unkempt looking bunkers as neither practical nor germaine to designs and symptomatic of an overly literal approach. "Every golf course with splashy bunkers should not make the (100 Greatest) list."

Isn't this guy a GM panelist?

[Adam Clayman]

I love Wild Horse, but as I was recently educated by ODG Architect Mike Young, you simply can't compare a place like Wild Horse. In the South they could not even grow what is natural to Wild Horse no matter what the price. Obviously with cost of labor being a fraction of where the majority of Rees' courses are located, it is not a relevant comparison.

I would be interested in a comparison of maintenance cost of Old Sandwich vs GC of Cape Cod by Rees. Theye are in similar locations with the Rees course being closer to Vineyard Sound/Ocean.

Bullshee!

Are you saying there's no native grasses and plants in these specific regions?

[Mike Sweeney]

Sween, Interesting you challenge Mike's comprehension skills and then make a statement like this...

Please remove yourself from the Wardian School of Reading Comprehention! The quote above is what HE said. Everthing else in Clayman's initial post was from the author interpreting his quote, who by the way may have been a Ward Graduate student! He did not criticize any architects work. He criticized the rating panels for becoming too one dimentional, and the form following function would appear to be a maintanance question.

Ward Graduate student?

Why don't you stick to what you're good at? Access!

Clayman,

Sorry, I was referencing the author of the quote from the article which (you) Clayman used in your initial post. My reference was to the article author (which I also read off-line like you). If was NOT a reference to you as the author.

My Ward Graduate student tweak was to my friend Mike Cirba who I spent one of the great golfing days of my life with at Fishers Island. I feel comfortable poking at Mike, and hope to play with him next summer on The Cape or elsewhere which probably won't be a Rees Jones course.  

In terms of Access, I have hosted over 100 GCAers in various ways at my son's charity outings at The Creek, and at clubs that I belong to including Yale, Mountain Lake, NYAC outings, Hidden Creek and Wianno on Cape Cod. I can't help that people on here are generous and have become friends and that I live in the middle of 50+ great courses. This Fall alone, I have turned down invitations that a few years ago would have been viewed as gifts from heaven, but I did play golf with my new Redneck Architect buddy at his $38 per round course in Georgia. (Just so you are aware, Mike Young gave me formal permission to call him my Redneck buddy)

If you think I have done anything inappropriate in terms of access, please feel free to contact Tommy and Ran and have me thrown off the board. Otherwise, I request an apology and suggest we move on.

Thanks

[Adam Clayman]

 I apologize and will amend the previous post.

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