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Robert Mercer Deruntz

Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« on: October 25, 2007, 10:40:20 PM »
There are not many more beautiful sights in golf.  Tuesday's tournament played at 230 into the wind.  A player in the group behind missed his shot straight and was on the front 10-15 feet with the pin only 7 yards from the back edge--a good 225 foot putt!

Jeff Loh

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2007, 11:04:46 PM »
robert
have you seen the "restored" biarritz at Tamarack? not as dramatic but pretty cool. 230 into the wind? what was the club of choice?
thanks
jeff

Robert Mercer Deruntz

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2007, 11:29:52 PM »
I hit a hard 3 wood and am very happy that it was low tide.  Being my second to last hole, it was a valuable up and down.  I haven't played Tamarak since the mid-90's and look forward to playing there next year.  I do remember that the dip was very similar in depth to Yale's.  We had an assistant's event that conflicted with another tournament--the reviews were very, very positive.

Phil McDade

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2007, 11:37:06 PM »
Robert:

I think (I hope I'm correct) this is the same par 3 hailed by Pat Mucci as one of the best and perhaps THE most versatile par 3 in golf. I always had the impression the hole -- based on Pat's description and the aerials I've seen -- was more exposed to the wind and LI Sound than this picture suggests.

Angle of photo? Are the trees merely window-dressing, and don't have much impact on play when the wind is up? Odd question -- does the bridge on the right ever come into play on a pin right-front? Is there a tee left of this one, as this tee suggests a slightly angled tee shot to the green.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2007, 12:23:14 AM »
The hole is very much wind exposed.  The trees behind the green are about 75 yards beyond the green.  The holes is probably within 100 yards of the LI sound.  The pictures of #9 and #13 can probably give a better perspective of the location.  The prevailing wind usually is off the sound.  On Tuesday, we experienced a very strong southwesterly wind and there were quite a few penalty shots struck.

wsmorrison

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2007, 07:12:31 AM »
The hole, like many M/R Biarritz greens, was fairway before the dip and green afterwards.  Recently, many of the flattened areas before the dip were turned into green space.  Tom Paul and I discussed this yesterday.  He likes the change of the original intent.  I couldn't understand what it was M/R were trying to do with a flat fairway leading up to the dip.  Tom Paul mentioned that there was a specific Biarritz shot that he was taught by the Head Professional at Piping Rock Club; something about a low running draw that had to land precisely in terms of distance and speed to hold the much smaller green, I believe.  Hopefully I have it right, but I believe Tom likes the changeover to green space across the entire area before and after the swale as it offers more options off the tee.

What do you think of returning the area before the swale back into fairway height.  Fairway heights are pretty low these days, a lot lower than the heights when Macdonald and Raynor were designing these template holes.  Original or evolved?  What do you guys think?

Jason Blasberg

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2007, 07:25:22 AM »
great pictures

TEPaul

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2007, 08:44:57 AM »
I stepped off the front to back greenspace on that hole and it's a bit over 80 YARDS, just about the same length as the greenspace now on Fox Chapel's biarritz.

However, I don't think that's even the longest I've heard of. They used to tell me the 10th green of RTJ's London Hunt Club was 90 yards long but on a diagonal.

The Creek's biarritz was a complete ruling workout for a couple of days for me in a tournament up there about a month ago. There was a lateral hazard relief ruling in just about every group. The thing that surprised me at first is that it's possible to actually get a two club length drop on that hole that gets the ball on the green surface. I Forgot that was allowable in Rule 26 under Rule 20 but I called the USGA Rules Desk and it sure is even if the wording is a bit obscure (Rule 20-2c(iii).

SPDB

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2007, 10:16:11 AM »
Creek #11 is surely the most unique of all biarritz holes, but the green surface itself is pretty pedestrian when compared to other biarritz greens. The swale is considerably shallower and the green surface on both hemispheres is pretty flat.

I love the hole.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 10:16:42 AM by SBerry »

George_Bahto

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2007, 10:21:52 AM »
SBerry:  the swale was probably deeper once but certainly fllooded when the tide was in.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

wsmorrison

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2007, 10:51:56 AM »
George,

What do you think of the flat areas fronting the swales at green height or fairway height?  Were any Biarritz complexes all green space (Yale, maybe) from the beginning?  Should the original intent be maintained (especially with the short fairway heights of today) or do you prefer green height?

Bill_McBride

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2007, 11:04:35 AM »
I stepped off the front to back greenspace on that hole and it's a bit over 80 YARDS, just about the same length as the greenspace now on Fox Chapel's biarritz.

However, I don't think that's even the longest I've heard of. They used to tell me the 10th green of RTJ's London Hunt Club was 90 yards long but on a diagonal.

Here's the longest green I've ever seen - #4 at Paako Ridge near Albuquerque, NM.  100 yards long!



 :o :o  The 183 yard par 3 is called, "Dye-abolical," referring not to Pete but to Ken Dye of Finger-Dye Architects, partners of Baxter Spann who designed the great Black Mesa in Santa Fe.

http://www.paakoridge.com/Phototour/4.html

Bill Jones

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2007, 11:17:08 AM »
After the 91" restoration it was intended to be fairway like it was before. I lowered it to green height because the green committee was talking about taking carts across the island to the 12th hole to ease the traffic on the 10th. The pin was never placed in front of the swale unless the chairman asked.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2007, 11:41:36 AM »
Bet we'd hear no end of complaining helpful comments on here if that was sand instead of marsh!

wsmorrison

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2007, 11:42:09 AM »
Thank you, Bill.  Your contributions as a participant and witness are so important to those of us sitting in our armchairs  ;)  I look forward to and am grateful for your continued posting.

Jay Flemma

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2007, 11:51:57 AM »
I stepped off the front to back greenspace on that hole and it's a bit over 80 YARDS, just about the same length as the greenspace now on Fox Chapel's biarritz.

However, I don't think that's even the longest I've heard of. They used to tell me the 10th green of RTJ's London Hunt Club was 90 yards long but on a diagonal.

Here's the longest green I've ever seen - #4 at Paako Ridge near Albuquerque, NM.  100 yards long!



 :o :o  The 183 yard par 3 is called, "Dye-abolical," referring not to Pete but to Ken Dye of Finger-Dye Architects, partners of Baxter Spann who designed the great Black Mesa in Santa Fe.

http://www.paakoridge.com/Phototour/4.html

I know that at one time, that was the longest green I had ever played...but I seem to remember one since then that was 120...I just can't remember what course...something merely average as opposed to anything good...a little help here.

Nevertheless, Bill, nicely done pulling that pic of 4 at Paako out.  Fun little course that one...

I like Silva's Biarritz at #11 at Black Rock...its a wide shallow trench with gull wings, but there are only grass bunkers around it - "the natural contours and the swale defend par just fine" he said

George_Bahto

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2007, 12:24:38 PM »
Wayne asked: “What do you think of the flat areas fronting the swales at green height or fairway height?”

Many frontal areas were not really totally flat - CBM mentioned something about there being hog-backs on them to deflect or shunt balls to the side. Most of these deflection mounds have been removed. I still have set of these original mounds on The Knoll’s 13th hole as well as blueprint of a Biarritz green that shows their typical positions.

During my early research there we just a couple of greens cut at putting green height but I promoted the idea of full “two-section” putting surfaces a lot. I don’t really have a preference and like both “versions” but for different reasons.

If maintenance is an issue certainly the “single-green” version is preferred. A single green might be more preferable on a public access course. If “total originality” is the goal, then you should go back to the original intent, in all but about two instances were single greens.

However, if it were my decision, I’d opt for the full double green version ......  Why?   Very sexy version - a major WOW factor and certainly very memorable. I think they look great.

But the major NO-NO!!!! These greens were not meant to be pinned on the front (except Yale I would think) and certainly NEVER in the swale except perhaps in some sort of “fun” tournament.

My personal belief, for what it’s worth, is that Charlie did not use a Biarritz at NGLA because he felt it should be played from a high tee, similar in intent as the original Chasm hole at Biarritz, France, hence only three par threes at National. At the next course Piping Rock he built one at ground level which continued until a more ideal situation came up at Yale and later by Raynor at Cypress Point.

Think about Yale’s 9th: I’m not sure a single green version would work given the height of the tee vs the green, Even if the front section was kept firm, the ball is coming in so high I’m not sure it could roll through the swale and on to the rear section.

I’ve stated it before but in a couple magazine descriptions from the 1920's (namely in articles about Piping Rock and the original Raynor Deepdale course) stated the best way to play these holes were with what they called a “push-shot” at the time, a low line drive type shoots - a running shot, that landed on the front section, disappear in the swale and hopefully come up on the green. (I’d post the exact quotes but I’m not at home)

The length of a Biarritz  when built (19-teens and 20's) on average was listed at about 235 yards from the middle of the tee (almost always a single tee)  . . .  so unless you were downwind, no one could reach them on a fly. The main point is that these frontal areas were FIRM - so it worked then. I think at most clubs these “landing areas” may be a little too soft to work as intended.

I think just Yale and Chicago and perhaps Mid-Ocean were originally “double putting surfaces, though not too sure about MO.

Wayne: “Should the original intent be maintained (especially with the short fairway heights of today) or do you prefer green height?”

I think green height would be best but you really have a problem with ball marks.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bill_McBride

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2007, 12:49:24 PM »
Thank you, Bill.  Your contributions as a participant and witness are so important to those of us sitting in our armchairs  ;)  I look forward to and am grateful for your continued posting.

Maybe I'll see you during the Walker Cup in a couple of years and we can discuss you getting out more!

By the way, that's not my photo, it's off their website.  I did have fun playing there with the GCA gang in 2003 I think.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 12:52:12 PM by Bill_McBride »

tlavin

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2007, 01:41:48 PM »
One word, three letters: wow!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2007, 10:48:22 PM »

Creek #11 is surely the most unique of all biarritz holes, but the green surface itself is pretty pedestrian when compared to other biarritz greens.

There's a reason for that.

None of the other Biarrritz holes  have island greens totally surrounded by water and subject to strong winds.

A severe green at this site would be excessive in terms of the demands placed on the golfer.
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The swale is considerably shallower and the green surface on both hemispheres is pretty flat.

See the answer above
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I love the hole.


It's a fabulous golf hole with incredible variety.

In addition to the wind, temperature changes and humidity, affect the play of the hole dramatically.

I believe it's one of the great holes in golf.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2007, 10:57:00 PM »
The hole, like many M/R Biarritz greens, was fairway before the dip and green afterwards.  Recently, many of the flattened areas before the dip were turned into green space.  Tom Paul and I discussed this yesterday.  He likes the change of the original intent.  I couldn't understand what it was M/R were trying to do with a flat fairway leading up to the dip.  Tom Paul mentioned that there was a specific Biarritz shot that he was taught by the Head Professional at Piping Rock Club; something about a low running draw that had to land precisely in terms of distance and speed to hold the much smaller green, I believe.  Hopefully I have it right, but I believe Tom likes the changeover to green space across the entire area before and after the swale as it offers more options off the tee.

The shot you describe also works well because of the elevation of both the tee and the green.  It wouldn't work at Yale, but, it would work at The Creek if you had the nerve.

The reason it works at Piping Rock is that failure to execute doesn't result in disaster as it would at The Creek.
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What do you think of returning the area before the swale back into fairway height.  

I think it would be a mistake.

Having the entire island as green creates more diversity, especially when combined with the multiple tee locations and wind.

It's a spectacular hole as it is.
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Fairway heights are pretty low these days, a lot lower than the heights when Macdonald and Raynor were designing these template holes.  Original or evolved?  What do you guys think?

Evolved.

While driving on RT 27 in Southampton earlier this year I stopped in to discuss architecture with CBM and SR.

Both told me to tell you to stop running beer and whiskey through your system before pouring it on their graves.

Both stated, unequivically, that they had always intended for the entire green to be island, but, that they were hampered by tight maintainance budgets at the time
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Robert Mercer Deruntz

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2007, 11:47:56 PM »
In the final round of the '98 Met Open and tuesday's Fall Assistant Open, the "push-shot" was a good play.  With the wind, you really do have to use your imagination on how you are going to get to the pin.  And of course yoy have to execute.

Jim Nugent

Re:Creek #11 Pornography for Golf Archie fans
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2007, 01:17:03 AM »

My personal belief, for what it’s worth, is that Charlie did not use a Biarritz at NGLA because he felt it should be played from a high tee, similar in intent as the original Chasm hole at Biarritz, France, hence only three par threes at National.


Interesting that at St. Louis Country Club, which opened in 1914, a few years after the National, CBM built an uphill Biarritz.        
I guess he felt such a hole fit SLCC, but not NGLA.  

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