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John Kavanaugh

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2007, 01:46:40 AM »

I'll bet in 3 years they are excellent.


Who in the world gets three years...I thought the Supreme Court just ruled that anything over 2 was cruel and unusual punishment.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2007, 03:51:31 AM »
Actually, Scott Ramsay was named Superintendent of the Year in 2007 by SuperNews magazine (now TurfNet Magazine), and it had nothing to do with the GCSAA. Small point, but a big honor, and the recognition he's gotten has led at Yale to considerable institutional support for his maintenance program. The place has benefitted tremendously from the work he's doing.

Kyle Harris

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2007, 09:48:37 AM »
Bob,

I read that letter. It was a letter partly of ignorance and perhaps of just-plain meanness, which is to say either the writer didn't bother to ask in the pro shop, or decided to leave out what he would have been told.

This past summer Scott Ramsay embarked on an experimental approach to ridding the course of poa annua.
Here is Scott's letter to the membership, dated 6 August:

"I once heard an inspiring speech based on a chapter of the conquest of Mexico by Cortes.  The romantic version of this story has Cortes sailing to Mexico and when they arrived he gathered his landing party on the shoreline as he had their ships scuttled. They were committed.
There was no going back, no escape route and no plan B. The only thing that mattered was ahead of them, so commit to the success of the mission. I will let the historians separate fact and fiction.
 I am committed to the next step in improving the Yale Golf
Course.  Last year I began introducing many techniques that would lower our populations of annual bluegrass (AB) which has invaded and colonized the course and to increase the indigenous bentgrass (BG) populations. The goal is to improve the consistency of the golf course while reducing the need for pesticides and water.
The first step was to provide the proper conditions for success for the Yale Golf Course. That meant sunlight, air movement and healthy soil conditions. Anything less would be a waste of seed. Secondly alter the sequence of agronomic programs so that it favors the preferred grasses. We are now in the third phase where I have implemented a "controlled burn" that has caused thin stressed turf, which is the perfect seedbed for the newer varieties. I simply held back on water, fertilizer and pesticides to induce this condition. It has been a long trek this summer and they are simply hungry, thirsty and without medicine. The weak will not survive.

"This is the low point.

"Now is the time to seed and rebuild. So as counter intuitive as it
may sound, the uglier I can make the greens the quicker and more successful this plan will be. It is critical to time the interseeding during the high soil temperatures in August and before the cooler nights of September. AB seed will not germinate in the summer months but bentgrass will. Just like the technology revolution in golf equipment there are many newer grasses that can perform easily under modern conditions and expectations.
This year a new factor has made it even more critical to succeed and succeed now. We are limited by the Connecticut DEP on how much water we can use and we have been in violation since late in June 2007. We have been exceeding our daily permitted totals each day during this drought. Currently I can only use enough water to keep the BG alive or else I will be paying the King more than his fifth, revocation of all water use. The shorter rooted AB is stressed and struggling.
Right now it is exacerbating the current program but ultimately it
will prove this conversion is necessary. I have no choice but to use this water challenge as an opportunity to hasten the turf conversion.
The water diversion regulations are a new challenge for all of
Connecticut's golf courses and the university has pledged to resolve this new challenge. I will keep you updated.
In August we will be repeatedly seeding the greens and nursing along the new seedlings. They already have been seeded twice in the first week. The process is very easy and is barely distinguishable to sight and ball roll. I would like to be around for a while and to create a more sensible and sustainable situation for all of us. This has worked at my previous golf courses. A few more weeks and a few more pounds of seed is a solid long term investment into improving the Yale Golf Course so we can all enjoy it for years to come.

PS    This is a drastic program that many of my colleagues wouldn't attempt, but many in my business will be watching. You can always tell who the pioneers are; they are the ones with the arrows in their backs. Here are some of the links to my research."

<http://www.turfgrasstrends.com/turfgrasstrends/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=383551&ref=25&searchString=interseeding>http://www.turfgrasstrends.com/turfgrasstrends/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=383551&ref=25&searchString=interseeding

http://www.turfgrasstrends.com/turfgrasstrends/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=442840



Hope this helps,
Mark


See: Scott Anderson, Huntingdon Valley, Early 80s.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2007, 10:44:32 AM »
Another example of how turf research is good for the super while being bad for the golfer.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2007, 10:55:17 AM »
Another example of how turf research is good for the super while being bad for the golfer.

HUH?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kyle Harris

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2007, 11:01:49 AM »
Another example of how turf research is good for the super while being bad for the golfer.

HUH?

John is saying that the super is turning the golfer's course into an experimental turf plot and using it to advance his own research and career.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2007, 11:14:10 AM »
Another example of how turf research is good for the super while being bad for the golfer.

HUH?



John is saying that the super is turning the golfer's course into an experimental turf plot and using it to advance his own research and career.

No..I would not say that.  

Kyle Harris

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2007, 11:30:02 AM »
Another example of how turf research is good for the super while being bad for the golfer.

HUH?



John is saying that the super is turning the golfer's course into an experimental turf plot and using it to advance his own research and career.

No..I would not say that.  

Fair enough... in some cases I would.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2007, 02:26:12 PM »
Who in the world gets three years...I thought the Supreme Court just ruled that anything over 2 was cruel and unusual punishment.
Quote




Who gets 3 years? A Superintendent with an intelligent and patient Board behind him, where  they all share a long-term vision of where they want the course to be.


« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 02:57:29 PM by Bill Brightly »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2007, 03:48:44 PM »
Who in the world gets three years...I thought the Supreme Court just ruled that anything over 2 was cruel and unusual punishment.
Quote




Who gets 3 years? A Superintendent with an intelligent and patient Board behind him, where  they all share a long-term vision of where they want the course to be.




Bill,

That is the difference between a member and a patron.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2007, 04:11:52 PM »
Who in the world gets three years...I thought the Supreme Court just ruled that anything over 2 was cruel and unusual punishment.
Quote




Who gets 3 years?

A Superintendent,

with an intelligent and patient Board behind him, where they all share a long-term vision of where they want the course to be.

Bill, wouldn't you say that that's a rare situation.

I don't know that that many board members are interested in architecture or architectural history, even at their own clubs.

I suspect that the trend is away from the architectural point of origin as new generations of board members, further removed from the club's architectural origins come into office.

I see a trend where TV and the PGA Tour exert a greater influence on boards than the discovery of original plans and photos do.
[/color]


Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2007, 04:46:02 PM »
Pat,

Remember, the thread is on "patience" with respect to course conditions. I think you have a better shot at implementing a 3-5 year plan to gradually improve turf conditions.

But I think you are right,  VERY few members know about their club's architectual history. I'm grounds chair at a Banks course, and we have spent the past three years trying to educate our membership. A former President wrote a series of articles describing our model holes, comparing them to the "originals" at National, for example. I followed that up with a series of articles explaining our Banks-Raynor-Macdonald lineage, trying to let them know who Macdonald was and why it SHOULD matter to us. (This website was incredibly helpful to my research, as was George Bahto's book.) And our current  President became hooked on the whole thing!

Only then did we put forward a (modest) restoration plan which the membership is voting on. I am quite confident that it will pass. But I can't tell you how many members have said to me: Bill, the plan looks great EXCEPT for that goofy third hole! (We are returning the front portion of our Biarritz to green and putting back the front bunkers.  I have had to spend SO MUCH time trying to explain this, how Banks built it everywhere, showed them Graves and Cornish's chapter on the hole...and they walk away saying: "yeah, well I don't like it!"

But the board unanimously supported the full plan and the "full Biarritz" is in the plan, as is a TRUE road hole!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 04:49:26 PM by Bill Brightly »

gookin

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2007, 03:42:02 PM »
Call me goofy, but I mean Top 10 and not MacRaynor. Of the top 10 I have only played 6. I put PV, Augusta and Oakmont ahead for different reasons.  I think after considering all 18 holes, the shot values at Yale compare very favorably with Cypress, Pebble, and Merion. These three courses do not begin to present the strategic options or the ground game opportunities that a firm and fast Yale Course would provide. While Yale will never have the ocean vistas or tournament history that help the ratings for this group, the green complexes are matched only by those top three.

I echo the comments about Scott Ramsey. His contributions to Yale have been considerable and the best days seem to be ahead.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2007, 04:14:27 PM »
That's the way to stick to your guns David.  Beware of men in white suits though.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2007, 04:29:07 PM »
Yeah, the guy hits a lucky shot, makes a par on the Biarritz #9, and puts the place in the top ten! ;D
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 04:29:23 PM by Bill Brightly »

gookin

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2007, 05:05:09 PM »
Bill,
At least you are able to assess the skill level of my game with more precision than you can assess the quality of the design at Yale.

Mike Sweeney

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2007, 05:32:01 PM »
I think after considering all 18 holes, the shot values at Yale compare very favorably with Cypress, Pebble, and Merion. These three courses do not begin to present the strategic options or the ground game opportunities that a firm and fast Yale Course would provide.

David,

I will stick to just Merion and Yale and I know those two courses about as well as any two courses.

Yale has a number of aerial shots where the ground option is not viable: 2 (except a very front pin), 3, 4?,5, 7, 10, 12, 14.

If you do a Ran like analysis of the Par 4's, Par 5's, and Par 3's, it goes:

1M vs 1Y = Y+1
5M 2Y    even
6M 3Y   Y+1
7M  4Y   Y+2
8M  6Y  Y+2
10M  7Y Y+2
11M  8Y  Y+2
12M 10Y  Y+3

While Wayne is getting nervous, Merion finishes with:

14M  11Y  Y+2
15M  12Y  Y+1
16M  14 Y  even
18M  17 Y Merion wins +1 on the par 4's and 17 at Yale may be my favorite hole on the course.

Par 3's, I tried to even out the distances for comparison:

13M  5Y  M+1
17M  9Y  M+1
3M  13Y  M+2
9M  15Y  M+3


Par 5's

I think Merion wins +2, 16 at Yale is the weak link of the course and while 18 at Yale is getting better, it is still goofy.

Overall Yale vs Merion, Merion wins +5 and believe me I love taking a shot at the hometown Philly guys. Yale with Scott's work and some other tweaks to a few greens that have been lost could be a top 40 course, but no more IMHO.

wsmorrison

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2007, 05:58:07 PM »
Mike,

While I was beginning to think you lost your mind completely, I finished your assessment and feel that there is hope for you.  Not much, but some  ;D

In my completely objective mind, Merion wins +18 in a Ran Morrisett analysis and +17 in a par to par such as you did.

David,

Now it is time to pass whatever it is you're smoking.  Over here if you don't mind  8)

Seriously, has anyone had problems with the site today?  Only this site has been freezing on me, and a number of times at that.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 06:38:56 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike Sweeney

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2007, 06:44:18 AM »
Wayne,

One thing is for sure, Merion #1 is the most overrated golf hole in the world due to a couple of old ladies eating turtle soup in your backswing. There is no strategy on #1. Driver gets taken out of your hand, plop a lofted wood/hybrid in the left center of the fairway, with a little pitch shot to an interesting but on that course mediocre green. Pin position has little meaning with your tee shot. Left middle is the play every time.

Yale #1, the strategy is driven from the tee depending on the left/lower or right/upper pin. The driving area has all sorts of humps and bumps that can kill or springshot a drive. Upper pin you can bounce one in, lower left pin, aerial shot. Green sets up your day, two tiers, big bold features with a Welcome to Yale attitude. No turtle soup but they do ask your SAT scores on the first tee!  :)

wsmorrison

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2007, 08:18:48 AM »
Mike,

I will admit that the Yale yardage book is nicer than the older version of Merion's yardage book that I have in my office.

Yale #1

       

From the tee



Merion #1



From the tee



Approach




For this discussion, let's ignore the comparison of Yale's 410 yard hole, handicap 5 (3 handicap from all other tees except championship) with Merion's 355 yard, handicap 11 opening hole.  I don't know how Merion's opening hole is rated, but for it to be overrated?  I find that hard to believe.  It is one of the outstanding opening holes in golf.  Short doesn't mean easy at Merion as you well know given the stretch of holes 7-13.

The only strategy on Yale's opening hole results from the green complex, which is not a bad thing in itself.  The spine separating the front right with the remainder of the green is a nice feature, but that's about it.  For anything but a left pin position, there is nothing at all to think about except hit it in the fairway (driver or 3 wood, club selection hardly matters) and play the straightforward hole.  However, the left side of the green is a bowl, so it does not require a very highly demanding approach shot.  It is a good starting hole.

Merion's opening hole is a short dogleg right par 4 with the dining terrace within 3 or 4 paces from the tee.  It can be a nerve wracking beginning when the deafening silence begins as you tee up your ball.  There are 13 bunkers on the hole so I would think there is some strategy.  It shouldn't take the mind of a Yale SAT score to figure it out  ;)

Playing from the back tee, better players rarely hit driver unless into the wind.  You can hit driver only if you carry and roll the ball less than 250 yards or carefully place the drive along the left side avoiding the cross bunker that makes the tee shot most interesting.  A pushed or sliced tee shot means you're in one of two bunkers along the right side with tall pines blocking any advance towards the green.  A bit of a hook and you are in one of two bunkers on the left often with an awkward stance.  With very firm surfaces when Mother Nature allows, controlling ball flight and distance is key all around Merion.

Laying back with a 230 yard club and ending up on the right means there is a completely blind shot to a green with a lot of trouble all around it.  There is a real advantage to being left of center, playing as close to the second left fairway bunker as you can to have the best approach angle.  Such a visual and line of play advantage isn't nearly as strong at Yale.  There is an option to land the ball short and run it on the green or take an aerial approach.  The green is typical Merion; there are a number of interplays of slope and grain (towards the 11th green) that must be carefully judged.  Distance is the biggest factor as a putt from back to front is particularly difficult to judge and lag near the pin.

From an aesthetic point of view, there is no comparison.  Merion's 1st hole is overwhelmingly superior.  From a strategic standpoint, neither Yale or Merion's opener is an outstanding example, but I think few would consider that Yale #1 has more strategy than Merion #1.  Merion has angles of play and distance demands that Yale does not have.  There's a lot more going on in Merion's 355 yards than Yale's with more than 15% additional yardage.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 08:23:15 AM by Wayne Morrison »

gookin

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2007, 08:28:12 AM »
Mike,

thanks for your thoughtful analysis. I think it is a bit closer than -5. 1) 17 was my favorite as well. If we could get a shot of Hogan hitting a 2 iron to win the Open on this hole perhaps it would move beyond 18 at Merion or at least a tie. 2) While I must agree Merion wins the battle of the par 3s,  I vote for Yale's 9 as the best of the bunch making the margin of victory much smaller. For what its worth, I was a bit dissappointed in the Yale Redan. 3) Again I agree that Yale 16 is its weakest hole, but I prefer the Yale 18 to any par 5 at Merion, which makes the par 5s a tie. So if you buy my points, I pick up 1 on M18 vs Y17 (call it a tie), 2 on the Pars 3s ( -2 vs -4) and 2 on the par 5s (0 vs -2). So lets call it even. Remember my assumption is that course conditioning at Yale is brought up to the same level. I understand this may ruin any chance I have to play ever play golf with Wayne.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2007, 08:36:15 AM »
I just stopped in a scanned a few posts...

Are you guys arguing that Yale is a better course than Merion?

Uh...nope.   Even if it was groomed like Augusta.

I love Yale, but c'mon..

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2007, 08:41:10 AM »
Sweeney,

If it matters at all, I made 7 on #1 in the afternoon round of this summers Phila. Open...I also made 5 on #13 in the morning round so the "easy" holes might not be so easy for me...

Mike Sweeney

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2007, 08:44:59 AM »
There are 13 bunkers on the hole so I would think there is some strategy.  

Oh I forgot, Merion #1 is overbunkered in comparison to the rest of the course (and Flynn's portfolio), and that is because the fairway is basically a Fazioish flat fairway with little movement except for a slight upslope that 90% of the better players will hit over! Clearly it is not a Hugh Wilson hole!

The only fairway bunker on Yale is at #1, and as many will attest, few others are needed because of the movement of the land at Yale. The strategy is naturally there off the tee, it does not need to be imported! I sort of wish they did not restore that bunker.

By the way, next time maybe you can come to Yale in January after a ice storm to get a really bad picture of the 1st at Yale!


Mike Sweeney

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2007, 08:48:33 AM »
Sweeney,

If it matters at all, I made 7 on #1 in the afternoon round of this summers Phila. Open...I also made 5 on #13 in the morning round so the "easy" holes might not be so easy for me...

It is easy to make a big number on #1 due to the bunkering (which of course is there due to Fazioish land  ;) ) please, detail the shots in route to your 7. I am curious where you left them out there.