[jeffwarne]

All of the above criteria are fine and make for interesting holes.

However, it's occasionally a blast to have a hole that purely tests one's ability to hit a drive on a distant green 260-340 yards away WITHOUT all the risk .

Sort've like a long par three where you take dead aim and are rewarded for a long straight drive. Such a hole is of course better if there is a preferred angle to come in from if you miss,and recoverable features  such as bunkers, dips,high grass add a little spice but not so much that you  are afraid to give it a rip.
and not so much going on that you end up laying most of the time because that's consistently a better strategy.

The UK is loaded with such holes (many because of the advance of technology). Many courses may have a few too many, but one or two such holes are a nice test of driver/3 wood ability now that few par threes test such skill anymore.

[Tony Ristola]

Without some land form, blindness, wind, or all driving the hole, I think it boils down to the green-greensite.

Riviera's 10th could be virtually bunkerless, a parking lot of grass from tee to green but hit it in the "wrong spot" and you'd have a tough approach.

With Matt's statement in mind, how many good "driveable" par-4's do you know of that the expert golfer can hit it long on?

[Tom Birkert]

Personally I like an element of risk and reward. The 11th at Sunningdale Old offers both. From the backs it is 322 yards (300 to the front of the green), from the whites it is 291 yards (269 to the front of the green).

To take on the green is actually easier from the back tees due to the angle it sits at. However, if you miss right then you’re in heather behind a line of trees which sit tight to the right hand side of the green. There’s also a ditch there. Making par is unlikely.

Most people therefore end up left as right is a no-no. From there they will have a pitch / half wedge over a deep bunker to an elevated, undulating green which is the smallest on the course with run offs front and back. Of course if they hit the approach shot too hard then they are into the heather / ditch / trees.

The sensible, percentage play is to hit a 220 yard shot off the tee, leaving a lob / gap wedge straight down the green.

I’m sure many of you are aware of the hole but I don’t have pictures to hand. I can take some tomorrow should anyone want.

I love driveable par 4s. They really spice up a round – assuming the element of risk / reward is there.

[Tom_Doak]

I agree with Mike's criteria, the second of which is the trickiest.  In order for there to be no dominant strategy, the hole has to be tough enough that long hitters don't always try to drive it, yet short enough for the medium hitter to occasionally have a go.

It helps tremendously if you are in a windy setting.  Without a wind, for most good players, such a hole will be "always go" or "always lay up except in dire match play circumstances".  That's why the driveable par-4's at Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach and Pacific Dunes and Sebonack all work pretty well.  I didn't build any such holes at some of my other courses in less windy settings.

[Phil Benedict]

The 17th at Oakmont produced some of the most exiting televised golf ever but arguably it violated the safe route rule because the lay up shot was so challenging due to the slope of the fairway and severity of the rough.  There was no dominant strategy though, as some laid up and some went for the green.  Bogie was possible with either tactic.  The extreme rough left of the green was a good tournament feature because it brought bogie into play if you went for but missed the green.

It was a great hole in the US Open.

[Michael J. Moss]

Tom Doak, et al,

Has anyone actually seen (or been) a player who's knocked one on the 6th at Pacific Dunes? Can it be done? Will the well struck bomb up the right allow the ball to kick up onto the green?

Was this built as a driveable par-4?

It looks to be, then you see how small that green is and how deep the bunker on the left is. Too much risk for the reward?

[Jeff Spittel]

I think these types of holes can be very interesting even if they are of drivable length without giving you a very realistic chance to put it on the surface.

The 7th and 10th at Suburban in NJ are both roughly 300 yards with very elevated tees. The greens are both small and well guarded by bunkering and trees. On days when I was feeling good with my woods and short game, I'd have a go with a driver or three wood and take my chances with a greenside bunker shot or very short pitch. I never once hit either green with my drive. However, the elevation changes and slope in the fairways were such that the full shot in after a layup off the tee was no bargain.

In the hundreds of times I played the holes, I made everything from a 2 (holing greenside bunker shot) to a 9 and I hit anywhere from a 7 iron to a driver off the tee. In any case, they I think they're both great little holes even though neither meets the criteria laid out here.    

[tlavin]

The best of them all have a nearly toxic level of difficulty should one drive just short of, or just over, or just to the side of the green.  This necessarily implies that the safe route would involve a simple wedge that shouldn't bring the peril into play.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I thought when I started this a bunch of people would chime in with Rustic Canyon 3.  (At least I think it's 3.)

There's a diagram in this month's T+L Golf showing the different ways to play it, although Ran in his writeup doesn't mention driveability.  Where does the hole fall short against the criteria above? Does no one pull driver?

I hadn't thought about wind that carefully. I guess ideally you'd be dealing with a head wind one day / round and a tail wind the next.  The wind affects the decision by changing the effective or playing length of the hole.  That's certainly true on two of the holes I listed.

FWIW, Barnbougle 4 could be my favorite post-WWII hole.  There's just so much to think about on the tee, the possibilities of elation and terror are there in equal measure, the view is lovely, the green siting is absolutely inspired, love the "secret" ramp behind and right of that mammoth bunker...and it accomplishes this without the crutch of water.

Just a great thinker's -- and doer's! -- hole.  And while it is homage to RMW 10, it's homage, not a knockoff. So it's got enough originality for me.

I could play that hole again and again and again...

I should post pics.

Mark

[Tom Huckaby]

Mark:

Great call re Rustic Canyon #3 - I believe it hasn't been mentioned yet just because out of oversight....

I should give a caveat though - it's been a few years since I've played the course - so maybe things have changed, though I hope not.

When I played it it was definitely driveable - in fact when we did The King's Putter III there, it was downwind and very very firm - going OVER the green was the main issue.  But there's a lot of room behind so heck yeah, if was fire away.  You saw all the other ways to play it though.  I have a great example of that - when my family group played it (me, Dad, bro, bro in law, hdcps 4, 36, 28, 28) we did it four distinctly different ways.. and the only birdie was my Dad, who played it with two bunty 4-irons and a 15 foot putt!

As for PD #6, I have seen it driven - it does take some tailwind but it can be done.  Still I wouldn't think of that too much as a "driveable" hole - it does take one hell of a hit to get it all the way up that dune, and you have about 15 feet margin of error if you want to get it actually on the green.  That hole is most definitely a GREAT GREAT short par 4 though - I have to say one of the world's best.

TH

[David Stamm]

Three words come to mind when defining a hole of this type.


Decisions, decisions, decisions. That is what makes hole of this type in my mind great. The thought process.

[Tom Huckaby]

Three words come to mind when defining a hole of this type.


Decisions, decisions, decisions. That is what makes hole of this type in my mind great. The thought process.

Concur.  And the more difficult the decisions are, the greater the golf hole.  Or at least I think so.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:  You are welcome to post pictures of Barnbougle #4 if you have a good one.  It's certainly one of my favorite holes that we've built, and not many people have actually seen it, even a photograph.

Michael Moss:  I've never personally witnessed anyone driving the sixth at Pacific Dunes, although I've seen someone ten yards short in the neck.  I'm certain it could be done, but the ball would have to bounce onto the green without enough pace to go through the back, so it's not going to happen often.  The key, though, is that it's short enough that long hitters know they could REACH the green.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Uh oh, tall order.  I don't have a tee shot so I'll post this one that I think Tony T. posted elsewhere on the net: note flag just over the inside-right edge of that mammoth bunker.  There are a wide variety of options off this tee; some are dependent on the day's hole location and on the wind.  If you look right of that hump on top the bunker, you can make out a patch of green -- "power slingshot!"  And even if you take it "successfully" right over the bunker, you may see to your horror the ball carom into the bunker  left.  Then there are all the layup options...


Here's a closeup of the bunker -- going for the green draws a risk similar in its "legitimacy" as the bunker on RMW 10:


The green complex, site of the first homestead on this property, is utterly fantastic.  The photos below were taken during the middle of the day so you have to look carefully to see the surrounding hillsides -- including the power slope to the near side of the green you can use to run the ball down to, and even across, green.  In fact, hitting it right like this may be the best driving-the-green play when the flag is left!

4th green complex.


Closer look: note ball on hill; drive hit just right of optimal, where it hung up, leaving an impossible "up down and down" for birdie.


Better view of power slope in this picture from the course website -- the amazing thing is it looks so "obvious" from this angle, but I guarantee standing on the tee you would never notice it -- the scale of that bunker just eats up your eye!


Tom, maybe you could discuss the creative process that led to this hole.  Was it conscious homage to RMW 10, and if so, how did that work?  Did you think "big bunker," "fairway angled around green," etc.  Was Barnbougle 4 a hole you'd long wanted to build -- did you turn over in your mind's eye holes like this before you even knew of this site -- or did the opportunity just present itself? How about Mike C.'s role?

And what have you learned from designing this hole?

The word "great" is unfortunately overused to the point of devalue.  But IMHO this is one of the greats, modern or classic, certainly among those I have played.  It might be my favorite hole I have played on a course built since WWII.

Many thanks,
Mark

[David Stamm]

TD, was there much earth moved for that green site? It looks like it was just layed over the piece of ground. Wonderful natural looking hole.

[Mark_F]

I'm sorry, but I think this is only half a hole - it works when the flag is on the right hand side of the green, but when it's on the left, unless you can drive over the bunker - a big ask for probably 95% of people who play there - it's nothing.

Lay up in the valley before the bunker, pitch over, two putt. There's no way you would hit it to the left hand side of the fairway because of the angle, and you still only get a partial view of the green from there.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark F:  I guess you mean when the pin is in the back left of the green, you are down to two options.  When the pin is front left, I think I would always play left to go into the green lengthwise to that front pin.

Mark B:  The twelfth at Barnbougle is much more like the 10th at Royal Melbourne West ... Mike Clayton mentioned that right after I figured out the potential routing for the back nine.  We had to artificially build up a tee for that hole, and after Mike's observation, we built the tee at a very short distance to further the resemblance.

The fourth is almost an entirely natural hole, suggested only by the ground.  In my first routing it was going to be a long par-five (the third and fourth holes would have been combined into one), but we decided that was too long to play into the wind, and I didn't think we could use such a quirky green site when lots of people would be hitting long iron approach shots.  

When we decided to break the hole into two parts, it was clear both of them were going to be pretty short, but we did our best to make a good bit of difference between the two of them by making the third a bit longer and making the fourth as short a par 4 as we could stand.  This move also emboldened us to use the quirky green site as it lay [although there is a bit of fill in the green, which was more of a bowl to start with].

I went out and flagged the three bunkers one day during construction and went back to the tee to look and couldn't believe how good they looked.  I really hadn't thought of building the third bunker until that day, but I figured it was a good idea so that someone playing toward the back left pin would be more likely to have a playable recovery after a bad pitch.

There was some concern from the shareholders about the proximity of the fifth tee to the line of play.  Luckily that tree in the right foreground off the tee mitigates the danger, plus the fact that only a low percentage of players actually go for the right-hand route off the tee.  I am sure glad I didn't let them talk me out of building it this way!

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ah the 12th!  I loved that hole, too.  Funny how 4 is a "concave hole," where 12 feels like a "convex hole."  Valley / ridge distinction, I guess.

Nice call by Mike on the tee.

Yes definite similarities, with that "mean" bunker, false-front green and dramatic drop off long.

But we were able to sorta slingshot our drives down from the left, which I don't think you can do on RMW 10. Or can you?

Certainly your troubles are just beginning on either if you're staring at a flip wedge to the green.  Also, I enjoyed watching my playing partner significantly deepen that bunker on 12.

Let me know if you object to the photos below and I'll pull them.

Barnbougle 12: tee shot.


Bunker closeup


Green


Close up of front portion of green -- note false front / dead ground


Mark F, I see your point.  Would it be better if players played the set of tees forward of the "B" tees? I think that would make the carry 185m.

Mark

[Jed Peters]

Tom Doak, et al,

Has anyone actually seen (or been) a player who's knocked one on the 6th at Pacific Dunes? Can it be done? Will the well struck bomb up the right allow the ball to kick up onto the green?

Was this built as a driveable par-4?

It looks to be, then you see how small that green is and how deep the bunker on the left is. Too much risk for the reward?

I've played this hole a BUNCH of times.

I'm not very long (235-240 carry) but get it pretty close here from the backs taking it over the right bunker with a draw.

A good amateur player that I go with on trips hits 3 wood to 5 wood to the green (downwind) but can never hold the green.

I understand that Jayme Berkowitz hits the green pretty often when he plays there (he's a caddie who had a stellar junior career.)

[Jed Peters]

Oh yeah, the first at Pac Dunes (I've only played the back tee) is a great reachable par 4 as well. A proper tee shot funnels right onto the front of the green....you just have to be up the gut of the swales the front the green location 50 yards out and the ball rolls out from there.

[Mark_F]

Mark F, I see your point.  Would it be better if players played the set of tees forward of the "B" tees? I think that would make the carry 185m.

Mark,

I think the set of tees that would enable me to hit it over the bunker have yet to be built...

Not really driveable, but I much prefer the third hole to either 4 or 12.  Great, slightly unnerving tee shot, good angles, deceptive shot into the green, fantastic fairway, some real thinking to do with the second if you end up in the wrong place on the fairway.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Dredging up this topic for two reasons:
1. Tom Doak in Feb 09 GD interview says Barnbougle 4 is his favorite par 4 in the world (legit -- he picked other designers, well MacKenzie -- for his favorite par 3 and par 5)
2. Tom D's post about the role of the wind is a great lesson in architecture for me, worth re-exploring.

Re #2, in addition to Barnbougle 4 (still the favorite hole built post-WWII I have played), the 8th at Pinnacle Point is an excellent example of wind and driveability: a helping wind is a green light for the green, but otherwise the layup route is advised.

Despite the drama of Pinnacle 8, the aesthetics, strategic options, and challenge of layup route render this hole not even a shadow pretender to the Barnbougle 4 throne.

Any other examples out there of how the wind influences driveability?

Mark

[Kyle Henderson]

I was 20 yards short of the 6th green at Pacific Dunes from the black tees both rounds (slight helping breeze) last month. Good driving day.

 I would think highly skilled players (i.e. not me) would lay back with a three wood to leave a simple pitch instead of gambling with an attempt to hold that itty bitty green.

[Tom Huckaby]

I was 20 yards short of the 6th green at Pacific Dunes from the black tees both rounds (slight helping breeze) last month. Good driving day.

 I would think highly skilled players (i.e. not me) would lay back with a three wood to leave a simple pitch instead of gambling with an attempt to hold that itty bitty green.

Kyle:

Do you really think there is such a thing as a "simple pitch" into that tiny sliver of a green?

I don't.  And for that reason I am a firm believer in getting as close as possible, but of course favoring the right side.  There is tons of room over there....

In any case this hole too really shows the effect of wind.  Into the wind driving it is taken out of play.. but that may well make it EASIER as the wind helps hold up approaches so they can stay on the green....

TH

[Mike Benham]

Three words come to mind when defining a hole of this type.


Decisions, decisions, decisions. That is what makes hole of this type in my mind great. The thought process.

But are there multiple decisions because of the hole or by your golfing ability? 

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