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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean

Yes I've read enough today to see that his career and design credit(s) are really almost contentious to the point that one probably will never truly know the answer.  One question I would like to at least get a point in the right direction to the answer if you will is Rich Goodale's mention that Simpson had a real problem with Old Tom?  Until I get a book or two in hand to dive into I don't know where to begin to find the back story to this.  

Eric

I have the feeling that Simpson had a problem with a lot of people. Which of course makes me think that Simpson may not have been an easy guy to get along with in terms of golf design.  So far as Simpson not digging OTM's work - well, Simpson thought of himself as an artist (in truth he was one!) and I doubt OTM saw things the same way for any architect.  I don't know where to find Simpson's criticisms of OTM and probably others. 

The bunkering at New Zealand and the a handful of greensites at various courses I have played have convinced me that I would like to see more of Simpson's work.  At least when working on good land that drains well, I don't think I have ever been more impressed with an architect's work. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rich Goodale

rich,

seeing as you're the archie simpson man, do you know how much input tom simpson had on royal aberdeen?... and while you're here, have you any idea who laid out the ladies (silverburn) course at royal aberdeen?

thanks,
ally

Sorry for the late reply, Ally, but if I make these in under 2 years I think I'm having a good day!

According to the club history (Ian Edward and highly recommended), in 1919 Simpson gave the club 18 "very detailed" recommendations (it's unclear whether or not these were solicited by the Committee or not), of which only a few were implemented, as follows, paraphrasing Edward:

--two more bunkers at the 8th green, one in the far left corner and one at the back of the green
--a new 12th tee at the south-west corner of the 11th green
--filled in a bunker on the right about 150 yards from the 14th tee
--put in two new bunkers in echelon beyond the left hand bunkers on the 14th

Reading between the lines, Simpson's relationship with Royal Aberdeen was more than a bit fractious (see my post #3 above which quotes some of Simpson's "sweet talking" of the Committee), particularly with the Secretary, MM Duncan, who was just as well educated as Simpson and as good of a golfer too.  Nevertheless the Club did bestow him with a "Temporary Honorary Membership" for the months of June, July and August 1924 (a year when the club was hosting the Scottish Amateur), and in early June of that year the club added four new bunkers on the 18th and then completely revised the 11th hole, lengthening it from 90 yards to ~160 with a new greensite.  As Edward says:

"It would have been a fascinating experience to attend at the green with Simpson and M.M. in discussion as to what was required."

Cheers

Rich


Melvyn Morrow


The interesting point about Simpson and his generation is how they seem to forget to understand the qualities or should I say the actual procedures of their predecessors. 

Simpson and Co certainly moved GCA further along its path of development, however in doing so appeared to dismiss the 19th Century Designers fundamental contributions to the design process.

Over the last few months, it has been made clear that the whole project from design to opening of the course generally took around 3 months. The Design AM, Course ready PM is not correct being a total misunderstanding of the procedure of the Early Designers. That is not to say that designers did not peg a course AM then try and play a round PM on the rough ground, but there was a reason for this and which can be found in articles dating back to the late 19th Century (more on that at a later time perhaps).

Nevertheless, its seems Simpson and many of his counterparts seemed happy to criticise their predecessors, yet being so close in the timeline of the 19th Century, one has to wonder why.

Please let’s not forget that when golf exploded on to the Scottish scene, it was through popular support with the rich, landed gentry and the general population at large, no longer restricted to the super rich. Money was tight, as the clubs attracted more Members, more money was accumulated allowing better purchase or lease of land for courses and to build clubhouses. Also let’s not forget that courses, the railways and steamers (boats) were closely linked with golf allowing easy access for the day-trippers and more revenue for the small clubs. The Nation seemed to come together and support the introduction of courses for the good of the game and golfers. However, south across the boarder, when the club scene started (predominately inland) it was slightly more elevated with finance not being a major factor as it had been at the start of the Scottish explosion. Technology and the popularity of the game was already well known by the real expanse into England, plus the type of golfers being attracted to the game allowing more access to the finances.

I feel very disappointed when I read the comments of Simpson and the likes when they refer to Old Tom etc,.  They come across (IMHO) as seeming to be totally unconnected to their own industry and actually scathing, however they clearly did not bother to find out the original brief, financial constraints, quality and state of the available land. They certainly should have remembered the tools (labour and assisted labour/mechanical means) at the disposal of the original designers.

Simpson & Co make statements on their predecessors, but not well informed nor totally that accurate. They would appear to have forgotten that Allen Robertson, Old Tom and the other 19th Century Designers did not just continue a process (as Simpson was doing), but actually started the modern design concept. It was a slow development of learning, of evolving, GCA did not just appear overnight, nor was the money ready available and the courses consisted of the odd bit of useless land (to the farmer/land owner) which was not being used. GCA as we know it started in the mid 19th Century, it was developed and processes improved, as did the location of the late courses.

How did Simpson forget what had just occurred and what had brought him to golf in the first place? As in nearly all things there is a learning curve to follow, golf course design did not just suddenly appear on the horizon when Simpson decided it should.

Simpson was part of the learning curve, he contributed to the progress of design in golf but he had a head start, there were many established courses in his day. I do not dispute that Simpson & Co produce some great designs and golf courses, but they did not have to go through the detailed learning curves of their predecessors, it was all there at hand, they just took it to the next level. However, to call their period ‘The Golden Age’ just goes to show IMHO how the industry has forgotten its real Golden Age, it roots when the real concept of GCA was born (1840-1890’s).

Tom Simpson comments show the truth behind the individual. You make up your own minds about Simpson and Co, but please I only ask you to look to the facts before coming to a conclusion.

Simpson on the whole disappoints me, as I try to look at the full picture, so  his comments in my opinion overshadow his achievements, as its shows a complete misunderstand of the history of Golf Course Design. I wonder what he may have achieved if he had embraced the full history of his industry.

Melvyn
 


Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0

Eric

I have the feeling that Simpson had a problem with a lot of people. Which of course makes me think that Simpson may not have been an easy guy to get along with in terms of golf design.  So far as Simpson not digging OTM's work - well, Simpson thought of himself as an artist (in truth he was one!) and I doubt OTM saw things the same way for any architect.  I don't know where to find Simpson's criticisms of OTM and probably others. 

The bunkering at New Zealand and the a handful of greensites at various courses I have played have convinced me that I would like to see more of Simpson's work.  At least when working on good land that drains well, I don't think I have ever been more impressed with an architect's work. 

Ciao

Thanks for that Sean.  I'm thinking Melvyn may be able to help me out with finding some of those criticisms by Simpson.

Your comments above regarding New Zealand piqued my interest, leading me to Scott Warren's review of the course.  Since it is so close to Heathrow and if I can arrange a visit, would you recommend I try to play there before Friday at Porthcawl?


Melvyn Morrow


Eric

Tom Simpson describe the 19th century as “the dark ages: “They failed to reproduce any of the feature of the courses on which they were born and bred, or to realize the principles in which they were made. Their imagination took them no further than the conception of flat gun platform greens, invariable oblong, round or square, supported by railroad embankment sides or batters….The bunkers were constructed on the fairways way be described as rectangular ramparts of a peculiar obnoxious type, stretching at regular intervals across the golf course and having no architectural value whatsoever.”

Wonder where he would have started if he was in Allan’s shoes or OTM, but then perhaps he thought he had all the answers. A God like figure that in the beginning, it came to pass that there were golf courses. Modern GCA had to start somewhere, but of course, the early designers had to evolve and develop their ideas, because courses did not just appear even if Simpson may have thought that possible. A man full of his own importance, what he could have done if he just learnt from history, we will never know.

Melvyn

Melvyn Morrow


Eric

Further to Simpson’s comments and his reference to fairway bunkers, one has to wonder if he remembered that pre 1898/1900 the gutta was the ball and not the Haskell. Perhaps in that context the location of fairway bunkers may have made more sense. There were reason for the bunkers, as many were not added until after the courses was open, so to make a statement  “The bunkers were constructed on the fairways way be described as rectangular ramparts of a peculiar obnoxious type, stretching at regular intervals across the golf course and having no architectural value whatsoever.” IMHO I do not agree with it whatsoever.

I love fairway bunkers, I like them well placed to catch the adventurous golfer forcing the mind to come into play instead of just hitting the hell out of the ball. I would also welcome Redan style stonewalls across the fairways to test and probe the golfer. However, I fear that would not go down well with many of today’s golfers who seem to have forgotten that golf is all about hazards.

Melvyn

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thank you Melvyn for your insight.  Do you have more?  Is the writing you are posting from one of Simpson's books?


I would also welcome Redan style stonewalls across the fairways to test and probe the golfer. However, I fear that would not go down well with many of today’s golfers who seem to have forgotten that golf is all about hazards.

Melvyn


Was this your quote Melvyn, or Simpson's?  I love the thinking here. Would you believe I have drawn a limestone wall bisecting the line of play of the tee shot, sort of snaking diagonally left to right, for the 5th hole, par 5 'Long' on my ideal course (yet to be built  ;)).  Please check your pm.

Eric


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
shhhhhhhh-my fantasy pix are coming up......
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0

Eric

I have the feeling that Simpson had a problem with a lot of people. Which of course makes me think that Simpson may not have been an easy guy to get along with in terms of golf design.  So far as Simpson not digging OTM's work - well, Simpson thought of himself as an artist (in truth he was one!) and I doubt OTM saw things the same way for any architect.  I don't know where to find Simpson's criticisms of OTM and probably others. 

The bunkering at New Zealand and the a handful of greensites at various courses I have played have convinced me that I would like to see more of Simpson's work.  At least when working on good land that drains well, I don't think I have ever been more impressed with an architect's work. 

Ciao

Thanks for that Sean.  I'm thinking Melvyn may be able to help me out with finding some of those criticisms by Simpson.

Your comments above regarding New Zealand piqued my interest, leading me to Scott Warren's review of the course.  Since it is so close to Heathrow and if I can arrange a visit, would you recommend I try to play there before Friday at Porthcawl?



Eric

If you want to see how great bunkering can transform a relatively mild peice of land then New Zealand is a must see.  That said, NZ isn't one of the best in the London area, but it is very cool. 

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36467.0/

If you are serious about NZ you should contact Richard Pennell.  He is a proper chap and there can be no better host than him. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0

Eric

If you want to see how great bunkering can transform a relatively mild peice of land then New Zealand is a must see.  That said, NZ isn't one of the best in the London area, but it is very cool. 

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36467.0/

If you are serious about NZ you should contact Richard Pennell.  He is a proper chap and there can be no better host than him. 

Ciao

Thanks. I received a PM earlier with those very instructions and will be in touch with Richard.  Very cool sounds good enough to me!

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Obviously, in hindsight we can easily put Old Tom and Simpson into a proper historical perspective. But in Simpson's time this would be more difficult. From his point of view he was trying to bring new and fresh ideas into golf architecture. But these ideas were tough to sell at the time - many people would rather stick to what they knew. So in order to get any kind of traction under his wheels he had to create a bit of controversy and pit his ideas against the traditional ones.

It would be foolish to let his sales shtick influence one's opinion of his work. Just as foolish as disregarding Old Tom's work because of some later criticism.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
A new book about Tom Simpson was recently published:


https://www.rhodmcewangolf.com/shop/books/books-books/simpson-co/


"Commissioned by Rhod McEwan this is the first book to examine the life and career of Tom Simpson, until now a mysterious figure known only through his own writings on golf course architecture. Relying on Simpson's personal scrapbooks the book is written by two of the most eminent names in golf architecture of the last 60 years, setting out Simpson's golfing philosophy and methods. It is lavishly illustrated with previously unseen photographs and reproductions from Simpson's own 'Bible'."
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Not sure I would say he's the most under appreciated. Depends of course on who you ask. Talk to the members of Morfontaine, Fontainebleau or Chantilly and I doubt that would be the answer.


In looking at Morfontaine's Valliere course, that the 9 holes course that was first built there. I believe it's the first 6 holes which are still completely original and rather magnificent. A friend of mine happens to be Mr. de Gramont's granddaughter and she tells the story about how her grandfather simply said he wanted the best course there at all costs. There were no restrictions and the property was exceptional property for golf. I think most that have seen the 9 hole course there are pretty impressed, at least with the first 6 holes. I think it says a lot for Simpson and what he was capable of if given carte blanche with a great property.


If anyone ever has the opportunity to restore Fontainebleau and remove about 10,000 trees we will see more of this genius that Simpson clearly possessed.


To be fair however, this could be said for many of the talented architects now as well. Carte blanche with a great property would lead to something magnificent and often does (though I'm not sure about the level of carte blanch these days given environmental restriction and owner demands.)
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Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
I agree with David concerning Simpsons work in France. He certainly is top of the pile if you take into account Chantilly, Morfontaine, Hardelot, Fontainebleau, Chiberta. All sandy sites and arguably the best sites in the country, he must have been a very convincing character.
What I find interesting is that 15 years ago, very few people in France had heard of Colt or Simpson, not to mention many others. I believe Chantilly always used Simpsons name proudly, but now, all the other clubs suddenly dig out archives of photos and sketches for decoration as Simpson is undoubtedly considered as the best GCA in history !There is strong evidence to prove his talent in France but the French wrongly assume he was even more successful in the UK.
If you ask the average French golfer to name the best GCA, he will start with Simpson or Von Hagge, then maybe RTJ or a touring Pro (don't laugh please) and eventually Colt for some Parisians.   
The use of names has become OTT in my opinion. Can we call this awareness of GCA or modern marketing, I often ask myself the question.

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Willie Watson is another who very few know anything about. Besides the original Interlachen (before Ross) and Minikahada courses in the midwest, he did some very good work here California and magazine articles from the early 20th considered him amongst the best working in the area at the time. And this was during the time of MacKenzie, Thomas/Bell, Behr. I'm sure others can name some other worthy canidates. I do agree Simpson doesn't get talked about enough.


WILLIAM WATSON


Get it right, or I'll come over and break every guitar and golf club!  ;D

Anthony Gholz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hawtree's book on Simpson & Co. arrived on my doorstep yesterday and at first glance is wonderfully put together.  The illustrations are first class including a few we've seen in books long ago and far away.  They appear to have been redone using the originals as some are better than what we have seen in the ancient texts.  Maybe today's technology allows for better reproductions. 


I particularly like that the full edges of some of the drawings are shown which gives context and better understanding of the paper used.  I look forward to reading the entire book at leisure.


BTW the shipping from Britain was well done and the book arrived in excellent condition, including a new bookmark!
Anthony

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
You got a bookmark !! Wait till I speak to Rhod McEwan.

Anthony

Trust you are still enjoying the book. I certainly enjoyed it, and like you I really appreciated the way the illustrations and drawings are shown. Overall it gives you the flavour of the man rather than providing a blow by blow account of his life, and is none the less for that.

Niall

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