[Tom Huckaby]

I don't know what to make of the CPC 15 -> 16 walk.  That doesn't sound like a wormhole or a palate cleanser.

But the passage across 17-mile drive definitely sounds wormhole.  The more I see of this MacKenzie guy, the more I believe a certain type of genius possessed him.\

Mark - 14 to 15 is no wormhole, it's a walk across a road.  It is a palate cleanser though.

15-16 is definitely a wormhole as you've defined it.  And it's also one hell of a palate cleanser given the totally different, and totally historic, shot one is to hit on 16....

Don't mess with me, man!
 

[Tom Birkert]

It is not so much 15 to 16, but 14 to 15 at Cypress. I think, in general, the crossing of the threshold at Seventeen Mile Drive is an extraordinary passage at Cypress — the anticipation, the stage and the momentary wait are all such a great part of the round.

Great call Evan, and man as I read through this thread I was wondering what the heck took you all so long to mention 15 green to 16 tee at Cypress.

And I must disagree with my man Forrest.  On, 14 green to 15 tee is a nice walk, and crossing the threshold of 17 Mile Drive is meaningful, but to me it pales compared to the walk of all walks, which is what 15 gree to 16 tee is to me.

See, if you're a red-blooded great golf hole-loving golfer, your thoughts about 16 started about two miliseconds after you got the invitation to play the course.  15 also is looked forward to, but 16 is the big deal.  How you did on 16 is what you're gonna tell your buddies about.  16 is where you're gonna take pictures, if you are into such things.  16 is where you're gonna measure your success on the round - you could botch all other 17 holes, but if you get one on 16 green, you go home happy.

So the anticipation is freakin' palbable... and it grows and grows and grows as the round goes on... until you finally get to 15, which of course is a fabulous golf hole in its own right.  So you concentrate on playing that, until you putt out... and then the tought is "holy shit, we're here"....

Only you're not.

You walk off 15 gree and you go through the tree canopy.. where is 16?  You know it's there because you saw 16 green from 15 tee, off in the distance.  But it's hidden by the trees..... only then what's that, a gap in the trees reveals the green again... but then it closes up and you keep walking... only to emerge on the tee, and jesus h. christ, there it is, it is real, what an incredible sight.

Now THAT is a walk.

 

Tom,

That has just rekindled many wonderful memories from earlier in the year and summed it up perfectly as far as I’m concerned!

Oh, and I happened to make a 3…  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom B - my pleasure!  It was fun to write that and relive it for me as well.

I made a 3 last time myself.  Welcome to the brotherhood.

 

[Andrew Mitchell]

Conversely, the walk from 6 to 7 at Dornoch used to be not much more than a cardiac stress test, leading to a fairly dull looking hole.  Now, however, with the new tee at the end of the slog you get not only a much better golf hole, but also an incredible view back over the rest of the course and to the sea and hills beyond.

Rich

Nevertheless, it's still a slog, as is the climb to 9 at Cruden Bay.

Thankfully, the big climb at Lundin is between the tee and green on 12. I recall having to hit a greenside bunker shot while trying to catch my breath there.

Ken

At least the walks at both Cruden Bay and Dornoch are rewarded by views at the top.  I can think of several long walks at resort type courses in England (Hollins Hall, Forest Pines etc) with no similar reward.  

[Dale_McCallon]

What about the walk from 16 to 17 at Sawgrass?  Isn't it just long enough to make the pros start sweating just a little more. After a birdie hole, they regroup and make the march to 17.  Don't know if intentional or not, but Dye certainly has a way of getting into people's minds.

[mike_malone]

 Mark,

    While not as charming as the holes pictured the long walk between #5 and #6 at Rolling Green is through trees that were on the course at its opening in 1926, does occur far from the clubhouse , and is relatively early in the round.

   It also is the first opportunity to see fellow members on the back nine (#17).

   

[Tom_Doak]

I think it's nice that you guys are acknowledging that a green-to-tee walk can be a pleasant interlude within the round; I'm just telling you that they are usually a fact of the routing process which cannot be avoided.  The walk is a function of getting you to where the next tee needs to be.

Examples:

The walk from 15 to 16 at Cypress Point is great, but I think it's entirely a function of the decision to make #16 a par three, and not a short par-4 from further back.  The greens on 15 and 16 were non-negotiable, MacKenzie deemed the walk + the par-3 to be better than the par-4.

The walk from 11 to 12 at Crystal Downs is unavoidable.  There is 90 feet of elevation change from the bottom of 11 to the 12th tee, most of it on a 15% slope behind the 11th green.  If you wanted to play the five holes up top [12-16], you had to surmount that hill, and it was too severe to play a fairway up it.  So, MacKenzie sets a green into the slope as far up as he thinks you can stand it, and then you walk the rest of the way.  [Note also that the difficult hole #17 traverses this steep section of the property in reverse.]

The walk from 16 to 17 at TPC Sawgrass is a function of getting around the peninsula spectator mound which used to reside between the two holes ... plus it's a long way from 16 green to 18 tee and 17 is only 140 yards.

The walk from 11 to 12 at Pacific Dunes (and also the walk from 3 to 4) is a function of trying to get the routing so that there was a hole with the cliff on the right (#4) in between the two holes with the cliff to the left (#11 and #13).  To do so, we had to get from #3 green around #12 green to #4 tee, and from #11 green around #5 tee to #12 tee.  Originally, we wanted to use the back of #5 tee for #12 to shorten the walk, but we decided that people would try to play backwards down #4 fairway from that angle, so we moved all the tees for #12 up to the right, which increases the walk.  We felt we could get away with that because you're walking along the oceanfront -- the walk is very much the same as the walk from 4 to 5 at Barnbougle, except that you've already seen lots of ocean by then at Pacific.

[Jordan Wall]

We must not forget the walk from 6 to 7 at the beloved Sandpines.

Yes, we must
 

[Tom Huckaby]

I think it's nice that you guys are acknowledging that a green-to-tee walk can be a pleasant interlude within the round; I'm just telling you that they are usually a fact of the routing process which cannot be avoided.  The walk is a function of getting you to where the next tee needs to be.

Examples:

The walk from 15 to 16 at Cypress Point is great, but I think it's entirely a function of the decision to make #16 a par three, and not a short par-4 from further back.  The greens on 15 and 16 were non-negotiable, MacKenzie deemed the walk + the par-3 to be better than the par-4.

Does that take away it's greatness in any way?

I am asking that as a serious question.  I don't think it does, but I'm interested in the opinion of others.

TH

[Mark Bourgeois]

Isn't it interesting how so many have described walks they are familiar with at least partly in emotional terms?  It doesn't sound like architects play much to that...

Hey, if MacKenzie could have built a short 4 instead of a 3, but chose the 3+walk, then that walk doesn't sound like "a part of the routing process which cannot be avoided."

Or is that somehow the exception that proves the rule?

Taking this thread in even more-obtuse directions, is there some connection between landscape architecture (which sometimes "told stories") and this aspect of routing?  Well, didn't medieval mazes intend to replicate odysseys and paths to salvation / enlightenment etc.? Like wormholes and palate cleansers, they sought to induce reflection, right? That corn maze you got lost in last week, did that trigger despair?

Mark

[Doug Sobieski]

The walk from 11 to 12 at Crystal Downs is unavoidable.  There is 90 feet of elevation change from the bottom of 11 to the 12th tee, most of it on a 15% slope behind the 11th green.  If you wanted to play the five holes up top [12-16], you had to surmount that hill, and it was too severe to play a fairway up it.  So, MacKenzie sets a green into the slope as far up as he thinks you can stand it, and then you walk the rest of the way.  [Note also that the difficult hole #17 traverses this steep section of the property in reverse.]

Tom:

Thanks for the insight! That just adds to the brilliance of that golf course, because the elevation gain doesn't jump out at you. I guess the path has more slope to it than I remember. As I said earlier, it strikes me as unique since the rest of the course is so intimate.

I thought of another emotion that I feel taking that walk (in addition to sadness for only having 7 holes left). It's normally quiet rage since I would have routinely doubled #11.  

Regards,

Sobe

[Phil McDade]

Mark:

When I first ventured on the long path at Stonehaven away from the clifftop holes into the meadow -- you actually go underneath the commuter railroad tracks -- I sort of resented it, thinking: I'm having way too much fun out here amongst the crazy carries and 200-foot dropoffs, why this mundane stuff?

But after my round, over a pint on the clubhouse, I actually reconsidered my initial thought, and realized the four meadow holes represented something like an afternoon nap, or perhaps more appropriately a slower, softer section of a symphony.

I don't know, and sort of doubt, this was a deliberate effort by the course designer (Braid had a hand in Stonehaven's routing and design, although how much of one, I'm not sure). It seems the club wanted 18 holes, and given the limitations of the clifftop site, it simply went for the quiet interlude of the meadow holes.

The first hole (# 13) after the four-hole meadow loop is a short par 4 with a nerve-wracking carry over a deep ravine. I distinctly remember thinking to myself on the tee: OK, leisure time is over, gear up for this shot. That you can see the tee shot demanded on #13 on the walk to the meadow holes makes it even more of an interesting walk and time spent on the quiet solitude of those holes.

[Marty Bonnar]

CPC 15 - 16.

Dance of The Seven Veils...















No expl. nec.

FBD.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Martin,

Er, actually...this walk everyone's talking about (geez, you'd think this was a muni; so many on here have played it), is it that tunnel through the trees behind the green in the second and third pics?

And do you have pics of this other walk people have posted about?

Do you recall your thoughts through these passages?

Mark

As an aside, you know, if you wrap a little analysis around those pics then the post can be defended as something more than shameless pornography, a sop to we sans culottes and petit-bourgeoisie...

[Marty Bonnar]

Mark,
er, actually, yes it is. The first pic explains the fact that you see 16 BEFORE you see 15......there is a neat little bit of geology/geography which conceals the 15th green until you are practically on the tee, but 16 has been visible as you cross 17 mile drive from 14 green - I think!!! More regular visitors may be able to confirm or otherwise. I WAS very HIGH on adrenaline/endorphines/testosterone/maybe even a little oestrogen at the time, you see...!
16 then sits in your frame of reference all the time you are playing 15. Nice.....
The tunnel (for, yes it is) then leads you to the next stanza of the movement. VERY intimate, low hanging branches, dark with only a few gaps revealing ever more what awaits. (Hence the tortured seven veil analogy).
That tantalising glimpse of greatness, which is then taken away before eventually being given back is masterful. I'm not sure if it was ever meant that way - but I'd happily believe it was.
Enough anal-ysis for you?

cheers,
FBD.

[Marty Bonnar]

PS Culottes NEVER look good on a man anyway!!!

F.

[Mark Bourgeois]

But kilts do, huh?

[Kalen Braley]

Google Maps puts the walk at about 150 yards from the back of 15 green to 16 tee.  Would you say this is pretty accurate?

If so thats got to be the longest, most anticipation filled, 150 yard walk one will ever take in thier first visit to CP. It is interesting as Martin suggests if it was meant to be that way to get the juices flowing in anticipation of the next shot.

Also interesting to hear TD's comments about it potentially being a par 4.  Looking at Google maps I suppose they could have put a tee box 50 yards behind the current tee and make it a devilish short par 4.  I don't know if the lay of the land would permit this, but Google earth puts it at about 30 feet higher in elevation than the current tee box.  

In this scenario hitting to the green could be done by the long hitters yet still give the short boppers room to lay up out to the left.  Thoughts??

[Marty Bonnar]

Gotta tell ya, man, the chicks really, REALLY dig 'em.

I was beating them frauleins off like flies offa big scottish jobbie.

(Yes, the single WORST FBD tortured analogy of 2007 - look out for more drivel coming your way in 2008, folks... )

F.

PS Get this thing back on topic, right this minute, young man...don't make me come up there!

Kalen, that's about right. Thing is you are so conflicted that you REALLY DON'T want the walk to end, but CAN'T WAIT to tee the ball up and go for the green!!!! (Unless your initials are DM, of course)

F.

[Scott Weersing]

I can think of two walks. One of the best is the walk through the oaks at La Purisima from 14th green to 15th tee. It gives you a second to reflect and think about, "How can I par two of the last four holes?". The final 4 holes are into the wind or have a crosswind.

Another walk is the walk at Rustic Canyon from 12th green to 13th tee. Again this one is there because of the routing. I don't like it but I can't think of how I would change it. I wish the 18th tee was closer to 17th green but you would have to tee off from the 10th green, across the wash. If they built a tee there, it would wash away every other year.

[Andy Troeger]

Oops...forgot about the one at Crystal Downs. Also there are a couple walks at Forest Highlands to get up and down into the canyon holes (8 to 9, 9 to 10, 16 to 17, 18 to clubhouse). Its probably borderline at best to call FHGC--Canyon a walking course because of all four of those (which are more about the terrain than the actual distance).

Also Stonehenge in Tennessee has a similar situation where you finish the 15th and have to walk up a (HUGE) hill to get to the 16th tee back up the hill. You play down with the dropshot 14th par three, but I'm not sure there was any way to play back up.

[igrowgrass]

What about the walk at Bel-Air CC, I believe it is between 9 and 10.  I've been told you have to take a tram down the hill?  Anyone have pics of that?

[RichMacafee]

I love the walk between 4 and 5 at Barnbougle and think it not only works, but adds to the experience.

It is a great way to get from the more rural views on the left of 2,3,4 to the dune and ocean strip from 5-9. Sort of like a 'transition' walk. Because of that, it doesn't actually seem long at all.

[Eric Smith]

There are two instances on my 'dream course' where I have routed the green to tee walk in a pretty much back tracking direction, BUT what you get in return for these walks is not only a nice stroll (250 yds parallel through the trees after #13, 100 yds diagonally after #16), but a solid peek at the landing areas for your next tee shot(s) because once you get to either of these tees you'll find you're staring at a blind tee shot, only now you have a little ammo on your first go-round.

[jonathan_becker]

Eric,

Do you know what kind of grass you've got in your photo?  I figured you guys were all bermuda down there.  Though, it doesn't look like it from what I can tell.

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