[Michael J. Moss]

Calling Tom Doak!

This question is prompted by the current thread: "C&C's worst holes."

Tom Doak's list, which has only three entries, includes the 14th at Bandon Trails. It's not that I disagree with Tom's assessment - the first time I played it, that damned hole ruined a pretty good scorecard. (The second time, in a round that was at best indifferent, I birdied it!)

I am interested in knowing Tom's regard for the 17th at Crystal Downs, a course we all know he, and most connoisseurs for that matter, hold in very high regard. The two holes are close to mirror images of each other: both are short par-4s with tee shots downhill to severely canted landing areas. The fairway on the 14th at BT is sloped left to right where at CD, it's right to left. The short pitch shots to both difficult greens are uphill. There are differences. The degree to which the golfer is screwed if the green is missed on their approach are not the same - the 14th at BT being way more penal.  The fairway is wider at Bandon Trails, where I’m not sure there even is a fairway on CD’s 17th!  On each hole there’s the option of using a driver to either knock it on or get as close as possible- a very dangerous play! Both holes raise the players pulse rates prior to pulling the club back, which I think is generally a good thing, and this is because on each hole there is severe a penalty if you don’t find the fairway.

Each hole is a potential round wrecker, and, by the way, the 17th at Crystal Downs proved just that. I ruined what was for me a brilliantly played round, so there's no love lost!  Full disclosure: I've only played it once, but I was so flummoxed, I have no idea how to solve it when or if the next opportunity occurs.

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

As you point out, at Crystal Downs it's the tee shot which brings in the possibility of making X, while at Bandon Trails it's all about the second shot, so I've never really thought of the two holes in the same context ... but you're right, it's a fair comparison.

The 17th at the Downs is really a unique hole in my opinion.  I accept it for what it is, but I would never mention it as one of the 3-4 best holes on the course -- for many visitors it is, but only because it's so memorable.  Into the wind it is a brute.  You have to hit a long club to carry to the upper landing area [there is a lay-up fairway in the bottom, but I've never seen anyone play the hole as a three-shotter], and you have to hit it hard and straight to succeed.  But in neutral conditions I will hit a 4-iron there, for which the tee shot doesn't seem overly narrow, and then the green is pitched toward you and a straight approach will be all right.

Undoubtedly, though, if the same hole were on any of the courses at Bandon it would be quite controversial.

In contrast, I've already said plenty about the 14th at Bandon Trails on the other thread, but what I haven't figured out about it yet is whether there is any way for the golfer 80 yards out in the fairway to just settle for a bogey, or whether everybody just has to fire at the green and hope.

[Bill_McBride]

I have also played the hole just once, last July, and had a most unhappy outcome.  I hit 3-wood toward the top of the hill on the right side and somehow the damned ball stayed up there just above the fairway!

 

It appeared to me that anything hit up there would without doubt bounce on down into the top landing area for a short pitch shot.

As it was I had to hit a shot out of a gnarly lie with the ball maybe a foot above my feet and was unable to do more than chop it toward the green.

Then I left my pitch short and three putted.  Double bogey.

One of my playing partners overclubbed and went long left.  He wasn't seen for quite a while!

It looks so easy on the card, 301 yards.  I think Fred Muller's yardage book refers to it as "301 yards of sheer terror," or something like that!  

[PThomas]

i find the tee shot at CD17 much scarier than the 2nd to BT 14

[Jay Flemma]

Michael:

As you point out, at Crystal Downs it's the tee shot which brings in the possibility of making X, while at Bandon Trails it's all about the second shot, so I've never really thought of the two holes in the same context ... but you're right, it's a fair comparison.

The 17th at the Downs is really a unique hole in my opinion.  I accept it for what it is, but I would never mention it as one of the 3-4 best holes on the course -- for many visitors it is, but only because it's so memorable.  Into the wind it is a brute.  You have to hit a long club to carry to the upper landing area [there is a lay-up fairway in the bottom, but I've never seen anyone play the hole as a three-shotter], and you have to hit it hard and straight to succeed.  But in neutral conditions I will hit a 4-iron there, for which the tee shot doesn't seem overly narrow, and then the green is pitched toward you and a straight approach will be all right.

Undoubtedly, though, if the same hole were on any of the courses at Bandon it would be quite controversial.

In contrast, I've already said plenty about the 14th at Bandon Trails on the other thread, but what I haven't figured out about it yet is whether there is any way for the golfer 80 yards out in the fairway to just settle for a bogey, or whether everybody just has to fire at the green and hope.

Tom, one of the things I remember most is your teaching me about why 17 works...turning around from the green and seeing the key design feature on the tee shots...those three landing areas that actually are hidden from the tee, but are in actuality large enough to catch a good shot safely.  It's a cool optical illusion that makes the hole appear harder than it is, and is a clever way to offer more landing area in truth for the shot in a tight area. It really opened my eyes and I always feel great when I see that replicated...most notyably at 6 at Dismal River and 16 at Black mesa.

[ed_getka]

#17CD is a hole you just need to play enough to get to know it. After a dozen plays of bogey to triple bogey, I have finally gotten a handle on the hole. The tee shot isn't nearly as difficult as it appears, but the second shot requires absolute commitment, which is dictated by the lie you end up with (which you generally don't have control of). With a little wind blowing and the green shedding balls along the left edge into the bunker, or balls hit a little tenatively to the front of the green can roll back down, and given the steep slope at the front of the green that will roll a ball quite a ways back from the green, you have a tall order whatever club you hold. Add in the bunkering protecting the right side that isn't as deep, but the green runs away from you and it doesn't take much to roll right across the green into the really deep one on the left side. Long isn't a picnic either, but is the best miss of the lot, as long as you don't get too frisky with the downhill chip or putt.
   In comparison in my 2 plays at BT #14 the main issue is the narrowness of the green, and the reverse tier towards the back that drops down (instead of the usual up). Getting the drive over to the left didn't seem to be that difficult to me, but it must just fit my eye well, because most guys seem to complain that most tee shots end up down on the right.
   Given a decent tee shot on both holes I think bogey would be quite a bit easier to achieve at BT. You just scrape your second up along the safe left side beside the green and I think most golfers could get the ball in the hole in 3 more shots for a bogey. There is no easy way to scrape the ball up near the green at CD. Plus the big factor at BT is that you feel with the short distance to be covered you SHOULD be able to put the ball on the green pretty readily, but it doesn't seem to be the case in my 2 cracks at it. At CD the second shot seems daunting no matter how close you are to the green IMHO.
    I like the comparison and the exercise of thinking through the 2 holes. Thanks Michael.

[JC Jones]

I would have to echo Tom D that the holes arent as similar as they appear because the difficulty of the holes rests on two different shots.  The one time I played #17 at CD (about 3 weeks ago), we played it into a pretty severe wind.  The member we played with basically told us to hit the ball between 180 and 220 and we'd be fine.  He told us that Driver was an option but only if the ball was hit very straight.  I found the fairway to be wider than anticipated and not overly hard to find with good directions and commitment to the shot.  I think the green is harder to hit than given credit for.  Although the shot is not as awkward as #14 at BT, the skyline green coupled with the fact that a shot played short will roll 30 yards back is very intimidating (not too mention a shot long is off the edge of the earth!!)

I dont have a problem with #14 at BT because the difficulty only comes from a drive/long shot played down to the right.  Stay short and left and the shot is not nearly as bad.  I think the controversy comes from people forcing what shots they WANT to hit on that hole vs hitting the shots that playing the hole safely requires.  #14 being as wide open as it is makes you WANT to hit driver.  #17 at CD, because its uphill and the safe areas closer to the green arent as wide, makes you NOT want to hit driver so you are more willing to accept hitting 4-iron/6-iron/hybrid, etc.

Tom D -

re #14 at BT, I agree with Ed, just scoot it up the left to play for bogey.

Also, given where #16 green is at CD and where #18 tee is, and the severity of the land between the two, how could #17 at CD be designed any differently?

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