Olympia Fields South

[Dan Moore]

The Collis temp course was built on open farmland.  Do we know if it was 9 or 18 holes?  I've haven't seen anything conclusive on that question.  Most of the South course is not built on open land except portions that nle to the far south. 

From the old aerials the only open farmland was located north of the clubhouse where the opening and closing holes of the North Course are located today; to the far south of the present south course in areas that are now occupied mostly by housing and one or two holes of the south course; and to the far east of the present south course also on land that is now occupied by housing on land that would have been part of the original #3 course.   

Given that the clubhouse did not exist at the begining is it possible the Collis course occupied the far eastern portion of land.  As I understand the old numbering of the courses #1 was to the far west where the south course starts today;  #2 was in the middle and # 3 was to the far east. 

This is pure speculation on my part, a theory to be proven right or wrong, but isn't it possible Bendlow's original course was #1, Watson's original course was #2 and the updated and altered Collis course was #3. 

The Collis course was in play while the Bendelow and Watson courses were being built in 1917 which seems to indicate those courses were not built over  the Collis course.  The 1919 article on Park says he was brought in to "finish" the third course.  That could imply finishing the alterations to the Collis course started by Watson and Bendelow. 

Tim concluded in his article that the South was built over the original Collis course.  Perhaps he has evidence on this point. 

ps  I agree the O'neil article didn't identify the architect of the Knoll hole or the course, but why would Bendelow pick a hole designed by someone else on a property where he worked. 

[Jeff Goldman]

Tom,

The sources are the minutes of the club's Board meetings, a single volume of grounds committee meeting minutes from 1919, and several early issues of the club magazine, the Olympian.  They simply state unequivocally that Tom Bendelow was the architect of Course 1.  One mentions that Collis laid out a temporary course, and then Bendelow came in and did course 1.  They also state that Willie Watson was the Architect of Course 2, and that they collaborated on course 3. 

I am certainly not saying these are definitive; I don't think anything is.  You seem to be claiming that many of the news articles and sources cited by Tim, Dan and I are inaccurate.  That may well be true, but I don't think it says anything to establish that the articles and sources you cite are likely more accurate.  My opinion continues to be that we simply don't have enough evidence to know exactly who did what beyond what I listed earlier.   We can make some guesses based on the style of certain features (such as the bunkering on the 14th hole of the South Course, which is also found only on the 7th hole of old course 3), but I think that's it.

Also, if Dan is correct and the Collis course was built on farmland, it could not have encompassed all that much of course 1, a lot of which was heavily wooded.  He correctly cites the farmland areas, though I think that there was also farmland to the far west (if I have the directions right) and near the railroad tracks, where the range, shooting area and stable was for a while.  This was a BIG place, with nearly 700 acres.

Jeff

[Tim_Cronin]

I'll endorse Jeff's first paragraph as the most likely pedigree of the original routings of the first three courses at OFCC (and thanks for the praise, too, Jeff), with Bendelow laying his Course 1 atop Collin's temporary course, with changes as yet undetailed. There's plenty of supporting evidence, and some conflicting, most involving what Watson did where and when. All of it was in the papers I've read and what Jeff's found at the club.
We'll find everything by 2016!

[RSLivingston_III]

Not trying to doubt anyones work there, just kind of wondering(maybe in an assbackward way)  if Jeff Q is still in the game. I have been laid up for the last few years and haven't had a chance to find out what has been going on.

[Thomas MacWood]

Jeff & Tim
How do you explain the numerous contemporaneous reports that claimed #1 was redesigned by Watson & Bendelow (and not a single report - that I'm aware of - that Bendelow remodeled the course alone)?

[Tim_Cronin]

Tom,
    Let me know when and where those reports appeared (aside from the Tribune report of 1/7/1917), and one of these days, I'll go to the library, look 'em up, check the other papers of the era (there were eight or nine in Chicago then), and try to figure it out.
Tim

[Thomas MacWood]

Chicago Tribune - 11/5/1916
Chicago Tribune - 11/12/1916
Chicago Tribune - 1/7/1917
American Golfer - February 1917
The Golfer Magazine - February 1917

[Dan Moore]

The 1917 articles I have seen  indicate the Collis course remained in play while the other two courses were being built. What is the evidence that Bendelow built over the Collis course?  I haven't seen any so far.   

[Thomas MacWood]

All the 1917 reports I've read said that Watson and Bendelow had remodeled the temporary course...passed tense. #2 (Watson) and #3 (Bendelow) were in the planning stages in 1917.

As far as the choice of 8th hole for the O'Neil article. I don't think it is far fetched to think Bendelow would chose a hole in which he collaborated in the design or redesign.

[Dan Moore]

How do we know the remodeled course was number 1?  The articles don't mention course numbers as best I can recall. Isn't it plausable that Bendelow's solo course was the first permanent course finshed and therefore the #1 course. I don't know so I'm seeking the evidence of which course was which and I don't think the evidence cited yet is clear on that point. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Chicago Tribune - 11/5/1916-the article says the temporary Collis course will be altered and lengthened by next season. Two other courses have been laid out by Watson and Bendelow

Chicago Tribune - 11/12/1916-members will visit the property today to inspect changes made to the first course by Watson and Bendelow

Chicago Tribune - 1/7/1917-the temporary course has been remodeled by Bendelow of Chicago and Watson of LA. Course #2 was laid out by Watson. Course #3 has been laid out by Bendelow. At some point in the future Ross will plan #4.

American Golfer - February 1917-temporary golf course had been remodeled by Watson & Bendelow. Course #2 mapped out by Watson, Course #3 by Bendelow. #4 will be planned by Ross.

The Golfer Magazine - February 1917-the first course, which was temporary, has been remodeled by Bendelow & Watson. Course #2 was laid out by Watson and Course #3 by Bendelow. Ross will do #4. Its hoped the first three will be ready by the end of summer.

[SBendelow]

Another reference you might add to your source list concerning who designed the four courses at Olympia Fields is the article by Arthur C. Barnett in the July issue of "Midwest Golfer and Club Review", pages 14-15.:
   

[SBendelow]

Opps!! Senior moment - The July 1934 issue of Midwest Golfer and Club Review. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Stuart
What does the article say?

Who was Arthur Barnett? Would you place more credability on an article written in 1934 about an event that took place in 1916 over several consistant articles written in 1916 & 1917?

[Dan Moore]

Tom,

Thank you for sharing the sources. At first glance the 1/7/1917 article seems rather definitive.  However given that these reports indicate what they planned to do in early 1917, one must carefully examine what actually happened before concluding what they planned to do is what actually happened.  In particular there are some reasons to question whether those early reports correctly identify how the courses were numbered once construction was completed.

Here are some additional facts to consider.

Chicago Tribune 6/28/1916 Ready to start work on temp course planned by Harry Collis to be ready for play next month. On 670 acre property "there is ample room to install 18 holes without cutting trees and it will not take long to put in temporary greens."

Trib. 6/8/1917 Women's tourney held at OF. Despite soggy going possible to get fairly comprehensive view of the courses under construction. (This seems to state rather clearly that play continued on the temp course while construction was underway on the other two courses.)

Trib 8/15/1919 Willie Park is in Chicago and will visit OF to put finishing touches on the 3rd course. He will also inspect the first two courses. Jim Foulis will devote his entire attention to the 3rd course this year.

Charles Beach Club Founder in 1923 in History of OF from the Clubs website writing in 1923; In July 1916 "playing on the links had actually begun, the first course having been laid out on a few acres from which the crops had but recently been harvested." The temp course received quite a bit of play in the autumn of 1916.  He also stated "The comprehensive plan of several courses radiating from a common center was of course a process of evolution." Autumn of 1917 the 2nd course was designed so that by spring of 1918 Olympians were playing on both the first and 2nd courses. Third course completed in 1921.

It seems pretty clear from the two sources cited above that the Collis course was built on open farmland.  Given that almost all of course #1 which eventually formed most of the South course was not built on open farmland one must question whether it was the remodeled temporary course.  In fact of the three courses #1 was built on the least amount of open farmland with only three holes (the 5th ,6th and 7th) built on open land.  The other 15 holes were carved through mature woodlands.   This indisputable fact seems to indicate course #1 was one of the original courses.   

With construction underway in 1917 on both courses play continued on the temporary course.  While some changes may have been made to the temp course in late 1916 and early 1917 by Bendelow and Watson,  it does not seem at all possible the temp course could have been completely altered and finished in time for the for the 1917 season on the land where the #1 course was located.  It is quite plausable that the full length courses were completed first and the temp course on the open land remained unfinished until a later date.  This is consistent with Park being hired to put the finishing touches on the third course. 
 
It is possible the courses were renumbered after construction began.  Perhaps they decided to put further alterations of the temp course on hold while they completed the first two courses and renumbered the courses accordingly.  Perhaps the courses were renumbered when the site for the permanent clubhouse was selected.  As the club founder Mr Beach stated the plans were a process of evolution.

I do not suggest the above is definitive.  Clearly much more research is needed to sort through the conflicting and murky information.

[SBendelow]

The article in the July 1934 issue of Midwest Golfer and Club Review was written by Arthur C. Barnett, Chairman, Public Relations Committee, Olympia Fields Country Club.

Mr Barnett writes in part:          "Olympia's first course was opened July 10, 1916.  It was designed by Tom Bendelow and some of the geens were of sand.  William Watson of California designed the second course which was opened May 15, 1918.  Watson and Bendelow collaborated on the third course opened June 20, 1920.  The choicest part of the property had been reserved for the number four course and Willie Park, the English architect was engaged.  It was ready July 4,1923."

Multiple references are always preferable.  In this case,is hndsight any more accurate?, I don't know.  All the reports say that both Bendelow and Watson were there.  Since Bendelow lived in the Chicago area and Watson was from California might one conclude that Bendelow had a greater presence in shaping the courses design?   Makes a good case for clubs to get their history's written as events occur.

[Gerry B]

Was there this past weekend - to sum it up:

It is a beauty.  Better than advertised IMHO.

I  find that many clubs  that have 2 courses suffer from ugly step sister syndrome when it comes to the 2nd course which is certainly not the case at OFCC. 1st impression is that if i played 10 rounds might be 7-3  or at worst 6-4 in favour of the South.

Steve Smyers and company did a wonderful job.

Jeff Goldman: well done - was great seeing you this weekend.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jeff a belated congratulations for your desdication and efforts as well.

[JWinick]

Bump.