C/C Rankings

[Jeff_Lewis]

Bill,

That is one impressive post. You do get around.  I know you qualified your statement with "18 hole". Have you been to Southern Hills to see the C/C 9 there?

Where would you put East Hampton if both nines were of the quality level of the front side (in the field)?

[Joe Hancock]

I propose all lists from here on out are required to be in the BSF (Bill Schulz Format).

Joe

[Mike_Cirba]

I propose that for a group that loves to rail against ratings, we sure rank a lot of things around here!  

[Anthony_Nysse]

Good to see that Im not th only one who isnt a big fan of Cuscowilla. I o think its a good course, just not as lofty or highly rated as this DG or magazines believe.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Joe Hancock]

I propose that for a group that loves to rail against ratings, we sure rank a lot of things around here!  

Mike,

That's an observation, not a proposal. Get with the program, or the next proposal will be to create a ranking system the rescinds your posting privileges.......

Joe

[Mark Bourgeois]

I propose that for a group that loves to rail against ratings, we sure rank a lot of things around here!  

It's interesting that not one course listed ranked is one of Bill Coore's five solo projects.  Did everyone decide those are out of scope due to the "C/C" designation, are they just being polite to Mr. Coore, or is there another reason?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Mark,

      Excellent question!  I never hear anything about Bill Coore's solo projects and they don't seem to get much press. Have you played any that you would rank high?

      Does anybody have a list of his solo work with locations and time frames?

[Jerry Kluger]

Hidden Creek is perhaps underappreciated because it is on an average piece of property when compared to some other C&C courses.  The routing is superb and feels totally natural.  The greens are wonderful and great fun to play over and over. (Just ask Tommy and George - I had to fight to get them off some of the greens and make them come inside to join the others for drinks.)

Friars Head demonstrates some great architecture and dramatically different sections of property.  Colorado Golf also has the dramatic differences in the property and there I thought that some of the holes on the more subtle parts of the property were more impressive than those along the side of the mountain.  FH is just great fun on every hole and please don't bring up road noise in evaluating a Long Island course or you would have to downgrade Shinnecock, Maidstone and NGLA - and what about leaving LI and look at Oakmont.  

[Mark Bourgeois]

Craig,

This is off the website:

Bill Coore Projects:

Waterwood National Country Club and Resort (with Pete and Roy Dye); Waterwood, Texas

Rockport Country Club (18 Holes); Rockport, Texas

Kings Crossing Golf and Country Club (18 holes); Corpus Christi, Texas

Golf du Medoc: The Chateau Course; Bordeaux, France

Denver Country Club (master renovation project); Denver, Colorado

Projects Bill Coore was associated with while employed by Pete Dye and Associates

The Cardinal Club; Greensboro, North Carolina

John's Island Club: North Course; Vero Beach, Florida

Kingsmill Country Club; Williamsburg, Virginia

Country Club of Montreal (re-design and construction); Montreal, Canada

Craig, your point about "don't seem to get much press" is what I was getting at.

I mean no one here disrespect (even GMBF has not seen Rockport), but it kinda baffles me that people travel to all these "C+C" courses, many in remote locations, but don't go see Coore's first design.

If you're going to see the course and don't give a fig about the architect, fair enough.  But if you were really into that architect, if you really wanted to understand and appreciate his work, then to make a genuine study wouldn't his first design be at or near the top of your list, even if it stunk?

(Which is far from the case.  In fact, the architect himself recommends it in his Feature Interview.)

Mark

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm a bit surprised that no one picked up on John Kirk's answer to my question about what single thing most differentiates your top ranked C&C from the one you rank lowest. John said:

"That's easy, Peter. Topography, and soil composition."

Do you gents tend to agree? It's not differences in bunkering or greens or even routing, but topography and soil composition? I guess the latter - topography and soil - is key to determining the former...but maybe the question still stands.  

Thanks
Peter

Edit: I just realized I should put John's list here so that I'm not taking his answer to me out of context. Maybe his answer was 'specific' to his list, and is not easily 'generalized'. John wrote:

"Sand Hills
Friar's Head
Bandon Trails
Colorado Golf Club
Hidden Creek

Hidden Creek is awfully nice for last place on a list.  I'm torn between switching the last two positions.

I rank Friar's Head and Sand Hills much closer than most here.  Also, I like Bandon Trails' environment better than Friar's Head, but think Friar's Head gets the nod for having a better set of 18 holes."

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

What is so unusual about John's answer?

I've written it many times before:  most architects' best courses are the ones on the best properties that architect has worked with.  The architect's ability is a constant in this comparison.  And topography and soils (and vegetation) would be the principal attributes of a good site.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

I actually drove into Silver Spring in Ridgefield CT on Saturday because of Robert's recent pictures of the course posted here......

However, the Friars Head property is completely unique in comparison to any course on Long Island. Maidstone has a similar uniqueness because of the dunes there.

Mike--

Obviously Friars Head is on some great land and is a good golf course. I proud to say it sits on my home dirt---

I just feel the golf course just gets hyped up, and for me it didn't live up to the hype it was getting at the time.

Even one of the guys who I was playing with went as far to say it was one of his favorite golf courses on Long Island, hes played everything.

Mike, I will tell you where my head is at, give me 10 rounds, I would play 7 at Quogue Field Club!!!!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

wow I am impressed how many of you have seen Colorado Golf Club.

Sand Hills, best course period


Friars Head
Cuscowilla
Bandon Trails
Talking Stick North
Barton Creek

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom D

Let me see if I can explain myself. I'm trying to learn whether C&C's best work is especially/particularly 'site dependent', compared to that of other architects; and I'm trying to understand what this actually means/entails if it's the case.

I've read criticisms here that C&C's work is occasionally too 'understated'. I'm trying to understand what the reasons are for that perception; and I'm wondering what role (in order of importance) routing, bunkering and greens have when compared to topography in that regard.

I wish I had something more to answer your question with than more questions of my own -- but that's what's behind my asking about topography/John's answer.  

It's not that I disagreed with John's answer; it's that I found myself too readily agreeing with it for my tastes (given that I've much to learn here).

Peter  

[John Kirk]

M. Shea,

I haven't played Quogue Field Club.  Must be a nice place.

With respect to Friar's Head, I don't love every hole.  The former potato field is relatively pedestrian land for golf.  It doesn't matter.  
Friar's Head has ambience in spades.  The practice facilities, the flow of golf around the course, the speed of play, the walkability, conditioning, even the temporary clubhouse and staging area...a wonderfully designed private club.

Sand Hills and Friar's Head are pretty close to a tossup for me, even though Sand Hills wins on a hole by hole analysis, not to mention a beauty contest.  Sand Hills wins every beauty contest, except maybe against Cypress Point and one or two others.

My favorite holes at Friar's Head today are 2, 5, 8, 13, 14, and 15.  #15 is one of the great modern par 4s.  This year, I got above the hole in regulation and three-jacked it.

One last comment about the Sand Hills/Friar's Head comparison, which would make a reasonable standalone thread.  The creation of Sand Hills is almost completely dependent on the final routing.  Very little construction took place.  At Friar's Head, the land was very good, but still required more earthmoving and "active" golf architecture to arrive at the final product.  These are distinctly different skill sets.  Which skill is the most impressive, the most admirable?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark, to the best of my knowledge (which is often limited), Bill Coore's projects with Rod Whitman in France and Indonesia along with his work with Pete Dye and the courses that employed him in Texas are not really "solo" projects...of course it would be fun to visit those courses along with his 9 holer at Southern Hills someday...

Cheers.

Thanks, Bill.  From what I've read Bill Coore has solo design credit at least on King's Crossing and Rockport.  How are you defining "solo"?

And does this explain the lack of interest in the courses?  What gives?

Mark

[Anthony_Nysse]

John,
   Quogue Field Club is a 9 holer with 2 sets of tees to make for 18. It's shoehorned into the property. A neat little place, but doesn't hold a candle to FH...should even be spoken in the same breath. It’s like comparing the naturally grace, elegance and beauty of Jennifer Aniston to Jessica Simpson. The beauty is there, but its personality and depth make you scratch your head.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
 

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Anthony-

funny, its Quogue Field Club that has the personality and charm to me and Friars Head is the blonde bombshell!
I don't really want to make this into a Friars Head flame because I really do think Friars Head is good, I just think its hyped up.


You guys must think I'm either ignorant or nuts.

I'm still playing Quogue 7 out of 10.

[Jonathan Cummings]

M. Shea - I thought I would be the only person on this site to agree with you but I do.  I am surprised at the number of folks who put FH at least a little overrated.  Friar's has 6 good holes and 2 great holes.  I think Sebonack has even more good/great holes.  Atlantic's redo may surprise many of you - I have heard of raters placing it as highly as FH.  

On the LI classic side I believe Shinnecock is overrated and Maidstone way overrated.  Bethpage is skitzoid - a great design that the day in/day out player never sees.  The class and character of Long Island is National - may be the greatest statement in golf course architecture anywhere.

JC

[Mike Sweeney]

You guys must think I'm either ignorant or nuts.

Or BOTH.   I am Tony Pioppi fan of all 9 holers. I don't even know where QFC is located and as such it sits behind Bridgehampton, Three Ponds and Hay Harbor as "would like to play someday".

Jonathan,

What are your views on Piping Rock?

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:

I haven't seen Atlantic since the redo, but I think it's important that I ask this question:  what exactly did they redo?  
Did they change any greens?  
Reposition any tees?  
Or is it entirely about bunkering?  
And did they actually move bunkers and add bunkers in new places (including intruding well into the line of play), or just give them new cosmetics?

If the work was limited to bunkering, it's hard for me to imagine how bunker work could have transformed Atlantic into a course superior to Friars Head, but it also shows how paramount bunkering is to others.

[Doug Wright]

JC,

Of those I have played:

Sand Hills--Encomiums deleted; they're not necessary

Colorado Golf Club--Just played so still sinking in. Greens and short par 4s are really excellent.
Kapalua Plantation--Great work on a really difficult site.
Talking Stick North--The anti-Kapalua; pretty damn good low-profile course fashioned out of the desert.
Cuscowilla--Solid and really subtle. The short par 4 5th hole is one of their best anywhere.

We Ko Pa Saguaro--Very good but some repetition and a few weak holes= a slight mark down  
Talking Stick South--Probably underrated due to the proximity of its neighbor; actually a more difficult golf course than TSN in my opinion. Weak finishing hole.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tom - As I said, it was the comments from the others I was with - not ones I agree with.  I played Atlantic 5-6 years ago before the refurb and thought the layout was good upscale modern stuff.  I just played it again last month.  

The principal behind Atlantic - Lowell Schulman - is a world class guy and I wish him the very best (I have an embarrassing personal experience with Lowell that I'll share with you sometime).  I think Lowell saw the C/C look at Friar's and Sand Hills (where Lowell is a member) and decided that Atlantic would benefit from a bunker upgrade.  It is this bunker upgrade (very well done), growth of surrounding fescues, and impeccible conditioning that brings Atlantic up in the ranking game.  Others may not agree but Atlantic is pretty strong and a fine club.

J  

[Jonathan Cummings]

Doug - thanks.  Like Friar's I am in a minority (probably vast) that doesn't put Kapalua that high on any list.  

One goes to Hawaii for a million other reasons and golf isn't one of them - C/C Kapalua is a perfect example.  Enjoy the jaw-dropping views out over the Mokolai Sound as you hit a distracted golf shot.  Mask the view and Kapalua just isn't a very good piece of property for a golf course.  Try carrying your bag there.

Doak is rolling on the floor laughing but I have always thought that Prince is one of the few Hawaiian courses that don’t fit this "soft-ball resort" mold.  Mask the views and Prince is still a wild ride both visually and in difficulty.  Walk off 18 and you feel exhilarated - not a bad testimony for a golf course.

JC

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:

I'm in total agreement that The Prince is anything but a "soft-ball resort course".  But that doesn't mean I like it.  The severity of the first hole and the lay-up followed by the forced carry on the second hole still leave a bitter aftertaste in my mouth, eleven years after I last saw it.

As for Atlantic, Bob Ranum the greenkeeper is a good friend, and I have the utmost respect for Lowell Schulman as well.  The golf course has always been in terrific shape.  But since you didn't say anything about greens or fairways, I will assume that your friends were just wowed by the cosmetics of new bunkering.