NLE's-If you could play them, which ones?

[David Stamm]

You are given one chance to travel back in time and play 5 courses (or more) that no longer exist. Which ones would they be? It can't be a revised course that you wish could be restored, it has to be totally gone. And try not to name the obvious Lido club. My 5 would be:

1. Olympic Club- Ocean, Willie Watson

2. Royal Palms- Billy Bell

3. Fox Hills- George Thomas/Billy Bell

4. El Caballero- George Thomas/Billy Bell

5. Bayside Links- Alister MacKenzie

[John_Conley]

Why try not to name Lido?  Number one on my list.  Wexler's books are great.  I'd go off his suggestions.

[David Stamm]

Why try not to name Lido?  Number one on my list.  Wexler's books are great.  I'd go off his suggestions.

Just because it's the one everyone knows. I would've loved to have see it, but it's almost a blase answer to this, the no brainer.

[Jim Nugent]

Albert Lasker's estate course, that I think was supposed to be top ten or so in the U.S.  

Has anyone read, "The Missing Links: America's Greatest Lost Golf Courses & Holes" by Daniel Wexler?  It covers 27 NLE's.  I read that six or seven of the courses he covers would be top U.S. 100 even now.  

[TEPaul]

For me they are the usual suspects; The Lido, Timber Point and Mill Road Farm. I also would like to have seen Emmet's Meadowbrook CC. My mother who saw a lot of golf courses said it was one of the loveliest courses she ever saw. And I would like to have seen both Cypress and Pebble just after they opened. Of course, I would like to have seen anything Max Behr did just after opening.

[wsmorrison]

I agree with Jim and Tom Paul, Mill Road Farm GC would certainly be one of these for me.  It looked to be a fascinating design.  Flynn's mandate was to build one of the hardest courses in the country.  His 7000 yard par 70/71 course in 1926 did that with angles and bunkering that may have been enjoyable difficulty with a nod to difficulty.

Tommy Armour was the only professional to break par at MRF, he did so in 1934 and won the $500 standing offer to anyone who could do so.  Armour played the course in 69 strokes to break par of 70.  He took 40 minutes to play the 18th in bogey to accomplish the feat.  For a comparison in difficulty, in 1940, the CDGA rated MRF at 76.32 vs. par of 70 and Medinah #3 at 76.08 vs. a par of 72.  

Flynn's Boca Raton South was probably another top 10 course in the country at the time.  Interestingly, Tommy Armour has a history at both BRS and MRF.  Of BRS, Armour said to Grantland Rice, "I am going to show you one of the finest golf courses in the country...Not in the South only--in the entire United States.  At least it is as fine and as fair a test of golf as I have seen anywhere."

Opa Locka GC is another Florida course by Flynn that would have been a great addition to golf in that state and beyond.  It was the centerpiece of Glenn Curtiss's planned city of Opa Locka that crumbled under the combined weight of a real estate bubble burst and a devastating hurricane.  The design was amazing.  Here is an example of Flynn's 6th hole:



I would be satisfied with these three, however I would also add Lido (sorry) and one of Devereaux Emmet's NY courses that was lost in the expansion of NYC.  What might of been Emmet's greatest lost course?

[Kyle Harris]

Tillinghast's Aronimink, Old York Road CC, and Cedarbrook
HVCC's Noble Course (Baederwood Country Club until the 1950s)
Willie Park's Penn State College Golf Course

[Tom_Doak]

Wayne:

The Emmet course I would most like to have seen in its original form was MacGregor Links near Saratoga Springs, NY.  The course is still there but I'm told it is nothing like its original self.  There's a routing map of it in Thomas' book.

In addition to the usual suspects [and of course Foulpointe, Madagascar which Tom Paul somehow forgot to mention], I would most like to have played the original Sitwell Park course before the owner tore it up.

[Michael Christensen]

just for personal club history, I would have loved to play the original New Haven Golf Club...a nine holer which used to sit on what is now the campus of Albertus Magnus College.

Also in CT, I never played Red Rock in Manchester....it was plowed over for Buckland Hills Mall.

What is the course that still sits amid overgrowth in NW CT (up near Lakeville/Hotchkiss)  I remember a post a few years back mentioning a potential search.

The original Milwaukee CC and LACC (a nine holer at the corner of Pico and Alvarado) would have been fun to see too.

[Jim Nugent]

Has anyone read, "The Missing Links: America's Greatest Lost Golf Courses & Holes" by Daniel Wexler?  It covers 27 NLE's.  I read that six or seven of the courses he covers would be top U.S. 100 even now.  

Might seem odd for me to quote myself, but I just noticed that Ran has two very interesting interviews on this website with Daniel Wexler about his books on missing and lost golf courses.  Including a few photos.

Wexler also calls ANGC a lost course, for the usual reasons.    

[A.G._Crockett]

In Gainesville, GA there was a Ross 9 hole muni that was covered with water when Lake Lanier was created several decades ago.  

The way things are going with the drought here in Georgia, that NLE may unfortunately be available again in a few months. I'll let you know if tee times become available...

[Michael Christensen]

speaking of courses that were flooded by a created lake......I believe Quabbin Resevoir went over Dugmar Golf Club.....I don't think it will dry up anytime soon!  

[Paul_Turner]

Adolf destroyed some classic links in Belgium:  St Andre sur Mere ,  the third links at Knocke/Zoute/Letterbek and Lombarzyde (sp?).

[Bryan Drennon]

The Cypress Point that Seth Raynor would have built. I bet it would be at the least the equal of today's course, if not better. Either way, I would love to see what the finished product would have looked like and compare it to the finished product we have now. I guess that's technically not a NLE (more of a never was) now that I think about it. Still a neat thought though.

[Jon Spaulding]

In no particular order:

- Ocean Links
- Timber Point
- Boca Raton

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Most any of the NLE courses in Queens and on LI; from Emmet in Queens-Pomonok, Queens Valley; Mackenzie's Bayside; according to what I've read, it had no bunkers; Tillinghast's Fresh Meadow, supposedly a difficult test of golf.  Raynor's Oakland, Bethpage Blue (1935 US Public Links course), Salisbury No. 4 (Eisenhower Park-Red) as designed by Emmet for the 1926 PGA.  Hillcrest in Queens (don't know where it was, exactly) and the original North Hills CC, when they played out of Douglaston and prior to moving east to Nassu County.  Today's Douglaston is different from when it was North Hills CC.  

Specifically, it would be interesting to see the courses and maintenance practices of the day, and how the game was different.  I also think it would have been interesting, from a romantic perspective, to travel to these courses through different means; a train, or horses and carriage, or earlier automobiles.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Michael,
The course you are thinking of in Ct. was known as Hob Nob Hill. Here is a photo of the 6th hole.

[Michael Christensen]

thanks for info Jim......looks verrrrrrry interesting from the air....too bad it is NLE

along with the same lines of Raynor at Cypress....Raynor was contracted to do a redo at New Haven in 1915-1916....would have been interesting to see what he might have done different than Willie Park Jr....because of WWI funding was tight, so Raynor moved to "paying" projects....and that was after Ross turned down advances!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Michael,
I believe this is a photo of Red Rock GC from this same set of aerials. It would appear to be under construction at the time, 1934. Do you know when Red Rock was built?

[George Pazin]

I'd like to play the original Augusta.

Or maybe Raynor's Cypress.

[Gib_Papazian]

Raynor's Cypress never existed - neither did his 2nd course at Fishers.

However, my fondest dream - even beyond Lido - would be the Raynor redesign of Shinnecock - prior to Flynn.

After I am done with that, my time machine will be recalibrated to  bring me to the Links Club . . . . . then the original Deepdale.

I'm not sure if I would want to see our Pacific Links at Olympic . . . . . it would be like having my nose rubbed in paradise lost, right outside our locker room.    

[Michael Christensen]

do not know when Red Rock was built......it was a 9-holer and I had friends who played it....said you could fly balls onto I-84....ala the pitch and putt in Vernon.....

[wsmorrison]

Gib,

Would you plow under Flynn's Shinnecock to play the previous version?  At a shade over 6100 yards, it would not be a challenging design.  It wasn't in 1929 and that's why it was completely redesigned.  Also, you might have some problems crossing Rte. 27 to play the course.  Man, they have a lot of traffic on that road!  By the way, what was so outstanding about that design?

I think the SHGC course that preceded Flynn's ought to be considered a Macdonald design with Raynor's help.  Macdonald was by most accounts in charge of the  process at Shinnecock Hills and as of 1907 was a member and bond holder.  Also, a number of prominent members of Shinnecock were among the founders of NGLA.  I doubt very much that Macdonald would have let someone else handle the design, at least enough so that it should be labeled a Raynor.

[Craig Disher]

Boca South
Timber Point
One of the NY urban courses - St Albans or Fresh Meadow


Wayne,
Not too sure about Opa Locka. I'd classify it as NLEBIMNHBB - NLE because it may never have been built. If we're including those, Flynn's full 18 at Manor CC would be first on my list.

[wsmorrison]

Craig,

You might be right.  I recalled a NYT article discussing an archery golf competition at the Opa Locka links.  But maybe there was a separate course for archery golf (Glenn Curtiss was one of the best at this strange but true sport) and the regular golf course was not completed.  Your photographic evidence hints that it was at least begun.  So, I'll stretch the point and include it