Women's National Golf & Tennis Club

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

This post has produced some interesting news offline.  There are some key members at Glen Head who are trying to implement a restoration.  There are a few things not worth restoring--the original 1st green and the original 3rd. I was on the phone today with a member who knows the course history very well.  The original 1st green was located behind the 5th green and in front of the 2nd tee.  Additionally, the 3rd green was somewhere up on the top of the hill where you can see the bunkers.  The 4th tee was located somewhat in the vicicnity of the right fairway bunker.  This hole was an angled par 3 with cliff depth bunkers on the front right side.  An interesting comment was that at one time all greens could be seen from the clubhouse--this is a rolling hilled course.  The topography really is awesome.  I really believe that after some work that this course will receive a great architectural buzz.  

[wsmorrison]

RMD,

Can you please number the holes as seen in this GoogleEarth aerial?



In looking at a 1940 aerial, while there were few trees on the golf course and none that look planted, there was no way you could see all of the greens, especially looking towards the northern portion of the property.  There are only a few significant changes between the course today and 1940.  One hole was lengthened into a dogleg right par 5, one hole was turned into a dogleg to account for a driving range and it seems like an additional par 3 was added north and slightly east of the range tee.

[wsmorrison]

A NY Times article dated January 26, 1922 indicates that the original name of the club was to be Glen Head Golf and Tennis Club  announcing that Hollins changed the name to Women's National Golf and Tennis Club.  The article later stated that Hollins was sailing to England to get ideas for laying out the club with the assistance of Cecil Leitch.  Devereux Emmet was named the golf architect who, "...will lay out the links along the lines proposed by Miss Hollins and her associates."

A November 21, 1922 article discusses the assistance of CBM and Raynor along with the hole yardages planned:  390, 400, 320,185,370,130,365,400,360 (2920);420,325,365,210,410,340,165,375,270 (2860).

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Order of holes:
   1.  Bottom right, adjoining the practice range
   2.  Bottom goiing right to left
   3.  Bottom left tee going up entire left side of picture
   4.  Interior right of #3 going parallel to #3
   5.  Above #2 going parallel towards 1st hole
   6.  Parallel right of #1 going towards clubhouse
   7.  Par 3 running parallel to #6 across the lake
   8.  Running up the picture between #4 and #7 and then
        doglegging left
   9.  Running to back of clubhouse
   10. Middle left side of road running up picture
   11. Top of picture, running left to right
   12. Par 3 running left of 11th green
   13. Dogleg left up hill
   14. Straightaway hole running towards condo development
   15. Straightaway par 5 running parallel to #14 towards
         road
   16. Short par 3 at top of picture
   17. Dogleg right running from behind 16th green to middle
         left edge of picture
   18. Running from behind 17th green above and parallel to
         9th fairway ending in front of clubouse

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, Robert.  I spoke with Mitch Hantman offline and he clued me in.  There's a fellow at the club, Marty Winkelman, that seems to have a good sense of the history.  I contacted him and I'll see what turns up.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I was fortunate to view an original scorecard.  Of note, the routing is pretty much the same--only two holes have siginficantly different yardages--#1 and #3.  The first green used to be located next to the 2nd tee and directly behind the 5th green and played 392yards.  The 3rd hole was probably fairly straight and played only 360 versus it being a slightly over 500 yard par 5. Because of the old location of the 3rd green, the 4th was a more angled par 3 of 188 yrds versus a straight 200 yarder.  The total yardage was 5914 playing to a par of 69.  Most notable was that the ladies played the same tees for a par of 77.  Really interesting on the card are rules --"Out of bounds loss of distance only" and "Players must not climb sides of bunkers" The card also prominately mentions replacing divots and leveling footprints in bunkers.  The card also has a line across that is called a stymie measure.

[Gib_Papazian]

I distinctly recall rewriting a long chapter on this subject years ago, but cannot remember if it was included in the Evangelist of Golf.

Kind of sad that I do not have that information off the top of my cabesa any longer.

I'll state that it is my belief Raynor had far more to do with the golf course than Emmett - who was close to C.B. Macdonald.

I base this belief on that fact that Hollins chose Raynor to design Cypress Point and MPCC (Dunes), not Emmett, who certainly had more time on his hands being a bit of an aristocrat.

We all know the sad tale how that turned out, but the fact remains that her first choice was a Southampton surveyor turned course builder to paint a masterpiece . . . . .  

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Gib, I am not a Raynor expert, but have played almost every course of his in metro-NY.  There is only one green, and I have played almost every Raynor, MacDonald, Banks course in metro-NY, that could be considered Raynor-like---#8 which kind of has a reverse Redan feature.  If the possibilty of minimalizing Emmett's imput exists, I would be more inclined to attribute architectural features to Flynn.  The course is one of the best routed courses you will ever play and it really has a feel of flowing across the hills.  I really wonder if another great architect would route this course any differently?  I have been fortunate to play most of Emmett's metro-NY courses and believe that he is seriously underappreciated.  He was absolutley brilliant in his green complexes, and Glen Head shares these features!

[TEPaul]

"I base this belief on that fact that Hollins chose Raynor to design Cypress Point and MPCC (Dunes), not Emmett, who certainly had more time on his hands being a bit of an aristocrat.

I came from mid-Long Island, and it seems to me Devereaux Emmet was a lot more popular around that area than most of us may realize. Unfortunately for Emmet's legacy he built a bit too much too close to New York City to survive into the future.

Here's a question about Emmet:

He was a good amateur player and I wonder if he accepted money for his architecture before the USGA created the so-called "architect exception" to amateur playing status which I believe happened in the early 1920s?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

I'm betting that Devvie didn't accept design fees as his family was completely loaded...until the Great Depression, that is.

It's amazing he isn't more heralded.   He designed courses back in the early 1890s thru almost the next 40 years.

Anyone doubting his genius should take an hour or two to walk around Leatherstocking, circa 1909, and remember that this was prior to NGLA, prior to Merion, prior to Pine Valley, and supposedly part of the bleak, geometric period of American design.

Anyone doubting his genius should also realize that he was great buds with CB Macdonald and actually drew all the design sketches of the great holes overseas that Macdonald utilized in building NGLA.   He was also onsite a WHOLE lot during that time.

I dare say that if Macdonald is to be given some modicum of credit for "consulting" at Merion, than Emmett sure as hell deserves a whole lot more than that for what he helped with at NGLA, not to mention the rest of early Long Island golf.

[Gib_Papazian]

Mike,

I was not there, so I'll take your post as factual and not bother to argue the point.

That stated - and I am not minimizing Emmett by any means - why did not Marion Hollins bring him to Cypress Point instead of Raynor?

And though I studied at the feet of the master for years, I really do not know the definitive answer to that question.

[Chris_Blakely]

The chapter on Women's National in George's book is quite minimal when compared the research and depth of the rest of the book.  Several pictures, from the old Golf Illustated, an old scorecard (easily obtained) and a lot of conjecture.  Please remember it was also infered that Leatherstocking could have been a Raynor course to!???  Emmet had a family farm / home right in Cooperstown, but it might be a Raynor, come on!

As for why Emmet was not taken out to California, can anyone name any courses he did west of the Ohio / PA / WV border that he was on site for.  He truly was a man of leisure.  I know he did several courses in the Bermuda / the Bahamas, but he vacationed in those areas.

[Mike_Cirba]

Gib,

My point isn't to diminish Raynor or Macdonald at all, but simply to wonder why Emmett isn't more renowned for his significant contributions to early American golf.

[JMorgan]

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[wsmorrison]

Flynn rarely made courses easier.  Most of the time he was asked to revise courses, sometimes within a few years of opening, it was to make them more challenging to keep up with advances in technology that were not planned for in original designs.

Here is Emmet's sketch and a 1940 aerial.  There are significant differences.  Hollins suggested that it was not going to be followed to the letter in all cases but, "...generally speaking the plan will remain the same as presented."

Emmet Plan



1940 aerial (courtesy of Craig Disher) in small size and low resolution

[JMorgan]

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[TEPaul]

"It's amazing he isn't more heralded.  He designed courses back in the early 1890s thru almost the next 40 years."

MikeC:

What did he design in the early 1890s?

I thought his first course was Island Golf Links (Garden City CC) which apparently began to be layed out in 1897. After that I think all his other courses were in the 20th century.

But I don't know why he isn't either more heralded or at least given credit for being perhaps the first over here to actually design and build what may be defined as the first good golf architecture over here.

Something tells me Emmet and Leeds may've been the first over here with that.

And if that's true, one sure does need to ask where they got their architectural ideas. I'd think it had to be in the linksland or heathlands.

But if it was the latter one also needs to ask if Emmet or Leeds did some really good INLAND architecture even before Willie Park Jr did?    

[JMorgan]

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[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I posted new pictures of holes 13-17.  Due to the rolling terrain, it is difficult to get a very good picture of the 18th, which could be one of the best finishing holes on Long Island.
Also, they have hired an architect to rework the bunkers.  He is the same guy who recently rebuilt the disasterous Century bunkers--Harvey.  Perhaps someone knows about this architect.

[Sean_Tully]

What was the name of the first all ladies golf club that was started in 1895 on Staten Island? It was a nine hole course in West New-Brighton.

Tully