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TEPaul

What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« on: October 19, 2007, 09:26:48 PM »
....is far more women golf course architects and at least one or two who rival the best in the business, maybe the best of all time.

I wonder who with some serious consideration could be considered the best or most creative women architect in the annals of the business.

The only one who comes to my mind at the moment is the unique Marion Hollins.

Can you imagine one of the best architects ever, Alister Mackenzie, ruing the fact that he could not make a par 3 out of the landform of #16 Cypress, and then having a women tee it up and show him it could be done?

That's just unbelievable.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2007, 09:46:10 PM »
Is there a "grass ceiling?" Sorry -- but seriously, there aren't any role models, career paths, etc., are there? Why would any woman in her right mind enter the field?

"Real" architecture could use more high-profile females, too.  But can you elaborate? Why would a "woman" designer be better? What would women see and do that men don't?

Is it fair to wish for another Marion Hollins? She was sui generis, wasn't she?

Annika has "designed" one of the courses at Mission Hills in PRC. Haven't played it, though, so I can't comment.

Mark

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2007, 09:59:41 PM »
I recall there was a female architect at the Renaissance Club walk (with Tom Doak) and dinner that evening in March this year.  I can't remember any other details.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

TEPaul

Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2007, 10:02:45 PM »
"She was sui generis, wasn't she?"

That could be Mark. That could very well be. There were some odd goings-on back in that day.

Some still think Marion was actually a rather large man who just preferred to wear a skirt for some reason. Some even believe Devie Emmet was a rather tall thin women who for some reason preferred wearing a suit and tie.

There could've been some very odd goings-on we don't know about back in that day.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2007, 10:10:44 PM »
Molly Gourlay was Tom Simpson's assistant and she's been credited as co-designer at County Louth (Baltray), Ballybunion old, and Carlow.

She was one of the leading women players in GBI in the thirties.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 10:11:44 PM by Bill Gayne »

TEPaul

Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2007, 10:21:59 PM »
BillG:

Do you think it's possible that Tom Simpson's cape and beret actually belonged to Molly Gourlay?

This has been brought up on here before but it's probably worth discussing from time to time as we go forward----do you think there's any future in gay or lesbian golf course architecture?

Hey Wayno, I've never thought of this before but maybe you have. Do you think Raynor's architectural style showed signs of some homosexual leanings? Or maybe even some S&M tendencies?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 10:26:33 PM by TEPaul »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2007, 10:25:45 PM »
Tom,

Is there a sexual orientation to golf course design? I am naive after all...

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2007, 10:26:46 PM »
Alice Dye among the present.

Also:

Jan Beljan with Fazio, Vicki Martz with Palmer Design and Cynthia Dye.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2007, 10:28:08 PM »
Joe, that question very well may be one of the most fundamental and important questions ever posed and posted on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com!!

I realize it's a potentially embarrasing and Squarmy question but if any of us have gotten suddenly turned on while playing a golf course alone I think we all probably need to ask why that would be.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 10:32:57 PM by TEPaul »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2007, 10:34:52 PM »
Joe, that question very well may be one of the most fundamental and important questions ever posed and posted on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com!!

I realize it's a potentially embarrasing and Squarmy question but if any of us have gotten suddenly turned on while playing a golf course alone I think we all probably need to ask why that would be.

You're reading too much into this. Most of us are men, and most of us play golf in the morning.....end of story.... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now.... New
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2007, 11:05:04 PM »
...
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 12:36:00 PM by Bryon Vincent »
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

TEPaul

Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2007, 11:11:16 PM »
"I do know that I would not submit a membership application!"

That's probably a wise thought and choice, Bryon. We wouldn't want you to submit an application and have your feelings hurt when you get turned down.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 11:11:47 PM by TEPaul »

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now.... New
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2007, 11:14:44 PM »
...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 09:29:32 PM by BVince »
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

TEPaul

Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2007, 11:15:45 PM »
I'm trying to think what some really good gay or lesbian golf architectural features could be.

How do you think scented candles on the first tee would go over?

TEPaul

Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2007, 11:17:48 PM »
"A straight club might not be so worried about my "feelings."

Well, Bryon, that precisely why straight clubs completely lack sensitivity, isn't it?

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2007, 02:27:20 AM »
"....is far more women golf course architects and at least one or two who rival the best in the business, maybe the best of all time."

Absolute hooey.
What we need are more committed, knowledgeable architects period. Who cares about gender?

By the way, I'm glad you spelled "annals" correctly.
I think we know who you're going to vote for for president.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2007, 10:08:35 AM »
Tom:

For a thread with a noble goal, your thought has descended to something lower pretty quickly.  And that's one of the problems any female golf architect faces ... there is a lot of resistance built into the system, both on the construction level and among the potential clients.

(I wonder what Jack Nicklaus thinks about this?  He says I don't play golf well enough to understand a golf shot, but I hit it as well as some women professionals ... so they must not understand either?  Maybe it says something that Jack has established all of his sons as designers, even his son in law, but there are no women designers in his firm as far as I know.)

Anyway, the architect James B mentioned above, Line Mortensen, is a woman from Denmark now living in Gullane.  She has designed a couple of new courses in Denmark, and I hope she gets to design more, because she clearly loves golf and loves the work -- and she understands what a golf shot is, too.

I had a young woman working for me for three years, Sara Mess, who's now gone back to school to get a Masters in Landscape Architecture.  Unfortunately, I could never get her out in the field for long enough to figure out what she could do out there, but she was better at doing routing plans than anyone I've worked with before ... unfortunately for her, we just aren't so busy that I need someone besides myself to do them.  

Part of the reason Sara quit was that she could see how difficult it would be to be on the road as much as the rest of the boys and have any kind of normal family life, which was important to her, too.  (That may be why the traveling circus lifestyle of professional golf attracts a higher than normal percentage of gay women, but that's another subject altogether.)  But, I'm sure part of the reason was that Sara could see how hard it would be to break through the barriers of a male-dominated profession and be respected by all of the parties one has to deal with.  Line Mortensen has managed to do this, albeit in a small country like Denmark where she was highly regarded as a golfer to start with.

So far all of the women who have succeeded in golf architecture in the USA have been part of larger firms where they can just go out and do the work, knowing they have backup from their bosses, and without having to establish themselves as someone who can attract business.

So, on one level I agree with Tony -- it shouldn't be about gender.  Yet, there are so few women at any level in the business that it's clear it HAS been about gender for many years, and I hope that's a trend that can be reversed.  There are a lot of women golfers, so there should be some female golf architects.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2007, 10:29:27 AM »
Tom,

That was a well written assessment and hopefully salvaged this thread from going deeper into the "annals" of where few of us want to see it go.

I work in the tech industry which also has very few females.  As we all go home every night, well at least most of us, the life on the road issue is....well not an issue.  I think though there is a common mis-perception that women don't have as much of an analytical mind for the work.  But I'm not buying that either because some of the smartest developers/coders/software testers I've known are women.  And my last two bosses are women who both hold director level positions.

I'd have to guess they suffer from the same issue of trying to break thru a male-dominated profession.  But a common theme I have noticed with the females I've known is that they are very strong-minded, stand up for themselves well, and don't allow themselves to be intimidated or bullyed by thier male counter-parts.  I knew one gal and she almost came to blows with one of the guys... and my money would have been on her.   ;)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2007, 11:07:34 AM »
Kalen:

Agreed.  Sara Mess was a math/chemistry major and honor student ... our company-average IQ went down at least five points when she left.  Some of the guys thought she was just too smart to be in this business, but that kind of brains can be extremely useful in solving complicated 3-D puzzles such as golf course routings.

TEPaul

Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2007, 11:27:42 AM »
"Tom:
For a thread with a noble goal, your thought has descended to something lower pretty quickly."

TomD:

I know, you're very right about that.

However, like that ultra survivor and optimist, Scarlett O'Hara, and her famous remark, "I'll think about that tomorrow for tomorrow is another day" (that would be today in the context of this thread), things should look up again and any moment now towards those sunlit uplands of life and thereby take on that noble goal again.

TEPaul

Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2007, 11:46:56 AM »
TomD:

I guess I've always been a natural supporter of women and women's rights in all things. It must be the unsheddable vestiges of my old broken down New York liberalism.

Way back then I just blindly wanted women to have it all just because they never really had it, but as I get older I also want them to have it all so they can see better and also experience more what it is and what it's like to make the mistakes that the other sex has made for so long. Call that sarcasm if you want, I just don't know.

But I do know the remark that inspired me more than any other I can remember (I thought it was about the best I've ever heard) was that of the good war reporter, Christopher Hitchens, when he was in Islamabad Pakistan covering the Afgan War when we were taking out the Taliban governement of Afganistan.

Hitchens had heard about enough of these Taliban representatives in Pakistan talking about and bragging about how and how much they denigrated women. He was also told by a US general that two of the pilots flying bombing sortees into Afganistan off the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson were women (one a really attractive and really focused black woman). And so Hitchens marched down the street in Islamabad and into the Afgan embassy and proclaimed in a very loud voice to the Taliban emessaries in the Taliban embassy:

"Guess what you F...ing assholes, SHE's pissed, she's packing AND SHE's heading for you."

I don't know why but that's about the coolest thing I've ever heard. And the image of that pretty, super focused black lady smashing back in the seat of her F-16 cockpit as she rockets  off that aircraft carrier with the white hot flame of her engines trailing into the night sky on her way to aim her guns at those jerks and pull the trigger makes me prouder than anything else I can think of to be an American.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 11:55:50 AM by TEPaul »

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now.... New
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2007, 11:55:18 AM »
...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 09:30:18 PM by BVince »
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Mike_Cirba

Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2007, 11:57:48 AM »
"...is love, sweet love"..*



* at least on this discussion group.   ::) ;)

TEPaul

Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2007, 12:04:22 PM »
Bryon:

I don't know that I have a solution or solutions, certainly not any easy ones. But do you think that should stop me from wishing and hoping somehow and someday there might be more women in that business or any other business?

Look, I'm just for equality of opportunity, period, even if in some areas or even on some macro level that might mean that the common demoninator gets slightly reduced somehow. But I certainly don't know that that would ever be the case.

Do you?

Peter Pallotta

Re:What the world of golf architecture needs now....
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2007, 01:07:20 PM »
TE,
I'm guessing that good architects producing quality work are probably blessed with a mixture of traits (in varying degrees): visual imagination/acuity, intuition, a logical mind but the willingness to work by feel/feelings instead, the ability to plan sequential operations while remaining open to spontaneity and experimentation, a love of order and predictability but an appreciation of randomness and happy accidents as well, etc, etc.  But I think an architect probably has to achieve some renown and freedom -- or have a great deal of confidence -- before he'll be allowed (or even allow himself) the full play of all those traits.  From what I’ve read here, there are very few female architects who've had a chance to let their own unique combination of traits play themselves out so fully.  It would be a really good and neat thing to watch and learn from, I think.

Peter