What Alice might see when looking at Engh vs Doak.

[John Kavanaugh]

Are they just building the same courses with different edges?  Is it easy to love them both?

[Jim Franklin]

I have not seen Engh's Creek Club, but early reviews say it has a lot of bowls for green sites like his work in Colorado. I was not a fan of that  many bowls. One or two would be cool, but 10 or 12 is overdoing it.

I do not see a huge similarity in every Doak course. There are some with Ballyneal and Sebonack, but Lost Dunes and Stone Eagle don't remind me of either.

Yes, you can love them both though.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have never seen a Doak green that did not look like a Doak green.

[Jim Franklin]

You need to see Beechtree in Aberdeen. It is very good, but the greens are not as wild as any other Doak I have seen.

[Michael Dugger]

John,

Before answering your question, it seems you need to qualify what about their work is "the same course?"

I see zero resemblences.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Before answering your question, it seems you need to qualify what about their work is "the same course?"

I see zero resemblences.

I would say to start that each use mounding as a primary strategic guidepost.

[Michael Dugger]

John,

Before answering your question, it seems you need to qualify what about their work is "the same course?"

I see zero resemblences.

I would say to start that each use mounding as a primary strategic guidepost.

Incredibly astute observation, Einstein, name a golf course designer which doesn't?

[Garland Bayley]

The presumably everywoman Alice would see a golf course!

The great news is that she would see the same looking at a Ross, a Hanse, a Tilly, a RTJ*, etc.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John K,

I hate to answer, because I don't want to piss off Tom Doak any more this week....he deserves a break.

But, I don't think its the edges that are different, although they are. I think its the middles.  JE seems to be into the clear cut/black/white definition of both main and alternate routes, where as I believe TD disguises and blends them a bit better.

Just my opinion.  Don't shoot the messenger.

BTW, I do like both their courses.

[George Pazin]

I have never seen a Doak green that did not look like a Doak green.

I'm not sure we're on speaking terms right now, but if we are, might I inquire as to how many you've seen?

And what would distinguish those greens from, say, a C&C green, a Brauer green, a DeVries green, a Hanse green, a Fazio green, a Rees green, etc.?

Do you think you could successfully pick out Tom's from a green lineup of sorts of the above?

Just asking, no nefarious intent.

[Michael Dugger]

Oh whatever, George, nefarious intent is good clean fun.

John picks and chooses where he utilizes his keen intellect.

He knows Tom would detest being compared to Engh..........therefore he does so.

He'll come back and say "I didn't know that," but it's pure horseycrap.

This thread has ZERO legitimacy.

Aside from an Engh course and a Doak course possessing 18 holes and being constructed of grass and sand, they have little in common.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have never seen a Doak green that did not look like a Doak green.

I'm not sure we're on speaking terms right now, but if we are, might I inquire as to how many you've seen?

And what would distinguish those greens from, say, a C&C green, a Brauer green, a DeVries green, a Hanse green, a Fazio green, a Rees green, etc.?

Do you think you could successfully pick out Tom's from a green lineup of sorts of the above?

Just asking, no nefarious intent.

I absolutely guarantee you that I could pick out a Doak green from a C&C, Fazio or Rees..I have not seen the others you mentioned.

Now let's get this straight.  This thread is not about me and if George, Garland and Michael want to discuss architecture and not me they should do so or get off the pot.  I actually do discuss architecure outside this site with real people in real time and this exact subject came up so I thought I would come to Golfclubatlas to sort it out.

If you think Doak and Engh are exact opposites than please say why.

[Garland Bayley]

John,

It is easy to love them both.
However, most think they have an entirely different look to them, and therefore, don't understand why you would even be asking the question.

I suggest you go first and name all the things you think are similar, because I suspect others think that is the much shorter list.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

It is easy to love them both.

The above is the question I was asked today in real life.  How is it easy to love both when you think they are so different.  Does that mean you love everything?

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

It is easy to love them both.

The above is the question I was asked today in real life.  How is it easy to love both when you think they are so different.  Does that mean you love everything?

John,

I thought this site was your "real life."

[Garland Bayley]

John,

I have different love for different people in my life.

I can do the same with GCA products.

There are a lot of faces in the crowd that I don't love even after I have interacted with them. No I don't love everything.

[Michael Dugger]

It looks to me like Engh has a very distinct "muscly" style he imposes upon each different piece of property.  It is apparent in his greens and his bunkers.  Obviously he is in love with the elevated tee shot, too, surely he puts everything right out there in front of you.

And elevated tees are fun.  It's great to blast the ball into the stratosphere and watch it fall back to earth. Yet it can get old.

It sure doesn't look like anything of Engh's would constitute as subtle, little bumps and knolls found on a Doak course are either bold and brash or not at all for Engh.  I'm pretty sure I've seen the same two tiered green on every course he's bult to date.

And you can be damn sure Doak would not have built that silly waterfall hole at Black Rock.

NEVER EVER Evvvvver

[Kalen Braley]

I have never seen a Doak green that did not look like a Doak green.

I'm not sure we're on speaking terms right now, but if we are, might I inquire as to how many you've seen?

And what would distinguish those greens from, say, a C&C green, a Brauer green, a DeVries green, a Hanse green, a Fazio green, a Rees green, etc.?

Do you think you could successfully pick out Tom's from a green lineup of sorts of the above?

Just asking, no nefarious intent.

I absolutely guarantee you that I could pick out a Doak green from a C&C, Fazio or Rees..I have not seen the others you mentioned.

Now let's get this straight.  This thread is not about me and if George, Garland and Michael want to discuss architecture and not me they should do so or get off the pot.  I actually do discuss architecure outside this site with real people in real time and this exact subject came up so I thought I would come to Golfclubatlas to sort it out.

If you think Doak and Engh are exact opposites than please say why.

John,

Here are 6 greens that all of which were done by 1 or all of the above GCA's that you mentioned.  I would like to see if you can properly identify them.  Please name the architect for each green.

Please anyone else, if you know who they belong to, wait until JK has chimmed in.


Green 1




Green 2




Green 3




Green 4




Green 5




Green 6

[John Kavanaugh]

Last time...This thread is not about me.  If someone else wants to take the test, go to it, because if you are wrong the only thing it proves is that Doak and Engh are more alike than you think.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

These greens pertain to your following quote:

"I absolutely guarantee you that I could pick out a Doak green from a C&C, Fazio or Rees..I have not seen the others you mentioned."

There are no Engh greens in the above pics.

[John Kavanaugh]

Why no Engh pics?  

[Kalen Braley]

Because you didn't explicity name Engh in the above statement.

I'm trying to give you the opportunity here to show your detractors that you got the goods to back up your statements.

[Tom_Doak]

With respect, I don't think anybody would pick out my greens in a photo -- it's in 3-D where they have a different character than other designers' greens.  But, I don't think they're the same on every course, either.  I doubt that John would pick out the greens at Cape Kidnappers or St. Andrews Beach as being "Doak" greens.

[John Kavanaugh]

Because you didn't explicity name Engh in the above statement.

I'm trying to give you the opportunity here to show your detractors that you got the goods to back up your statements.

Until you guys get over your man crush on me and remember that I am not an architect these threads are going to go nowhere.  This is the first chance I have gotten to see those pics on anything but my phone and they stink in a comparison perspective.  Please, either discuss Doak and Engh with maybe a reference to the Looking Glass for good measure or stay off this thread and go to the Kavanaugh agenda thread.  People, including me are tired of discussing me.

[Kalen Braley]

Because you didn't explicity name Engh in the above statement.

I'm trying to give you the opportunity here to show your detractors that you got the goods to back up your statements.

Until you guys get over your man crush on me and remember that I am not an architect these threads are going to go nowhere.  This is the first chance I have gotten to see those pics on anything but my phone and they stink in a comparison perspective.  Please, either discuss Doak and Engh with maybe a reference to the Looking Glass for good measure or stay off this thread and go to the Kavanaugh agenda thread.  People, including me are tired of discussing me.

John,

You made a very specific assertion, and I provided some very specific examples.  Isn't this what you usually ask for in several of your other threads...for specific examples?