Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?

[John_Conley]

Of course it can -- if its owner is determined to keep it that way.

Dan, that's probably not a business-minded owner.

It is pretty easy for me - a man of no money - gripe about how those with very deep pockets should build great golf courses, maintain them well, and have low green fees.  Oh, I left out while keeping rounds under 4:20.

Hey, you and everyone else is free to be that owner.

Knock yourself out.

[Tim Pitner]

How about a Tom Doak trail in Iowa?

Yes please.

I might even move back to Iowa for that.  On second thought, Doak is building a course in my current neck of the woods and the Rockies are in the World Series . . .

[Brad Swanson]

Tim,
   That Doak project in Denver could be a good case study for this topic.  Are the fees going to stay in line with the current fees?

Cheers,
Brad

[JC Jones]

How about a Tom Doak trail in Iowa?

Yes please.

I might even move back to Iowa for that.  On second thought, Doak is building a course in my current neck of the woods and the Rockies are in the World Series . . .

Why not a Tom Doak trail in Michigan?

Speaking of, I played High Pointe 2 weeks ago for $30.  I hadnt played it in 6+ years and I was absolutely delighted the entire way around the course, at least for the first 17 holes....

Never the less, that is as good as it gets in my book.

[Dan Kelly]

Of course it can -- if its owner is determined to keep it that way.

Dan, that's probably not a business-minded owner.

It is pretty easy for me - a man of no money - gripe about how those with very deep pockets should build great golf courses, maintain them well, and have low green fees.  Oh, I left out while keeping rounds under 4:20.

Hey, you and everyone else is free to be that owner.

Knock yourself out.

I understand all of that, John (and Tom D.), and am not griping! Merely answering the question that was asked.

And believe me: If I had very deep pockets, building a great golf course and keeping green fees as low as possible (so that you'd knock yourself out to get there) would be Number 1 on my list of goals.

I would not be a philanthropist about it, as apparently Mr. Rawls was down in Texas -- but I would not expect the course to make my pockets even deeper.

[Tom_Doak]

Brad:

Yes the fees will stay the same.  We only took the job because they were adamant about keeping the green fees affordable, around the $40 they charged before.  If they don't keep it affordable, our contract stipulates that I get a healthy chunk of the profits.

But, that was only possible because the project is being funded by the state golf associations ... and because it's a redo with an existing clubhouse / maintenance facility / etc.  If we were building it from scratch, they couldn't afford to charge $39 green fees.

[Tom_Doak]

Dan:

Thanks for your response.  I'd do the same if I had millions in the bank.  Perhaps, someday.

However, if that is the only business model that allows somebody to build an affordable great golf course, it should not be surprising that there aren't many of them.

JC Jones:  A "Tom Doak trail" in Michigan??  Now THAT's funny.  All we'd have to do is pass another state income tax increase to pay for it!

[Tim Pitner]

Tim,
   That Doak project in Denver could be a good case study for this topic.  Are the fees going to stay in line with the current fees?

Cheers,
Brad

I'm actually (mildly) concerned that the requirement for a low green fee ($30 or so) will affect what Doak and Co. can do with the project.  I'd much prefer a marginally more expensive rate ($40-50) if it means getting a better product.  Of course, the Man himself can speak to these issues, if he's so inclined.  

Edit:  Tom beat me to the punch.  They were charging $39 for Mira Vista?--wow, that was a rip-off.  

[Garland Bayley]

...
Why not a Tom Doak trail in Michigan?

Speaking of, I played High Pointe 2 weeks ago for $30.  I hadnt played it in 6+ years and I was absolutely delighted the entire way around the course, at least for the first 17 holes....

Never the less, that is as good as it gets in my book.

I think you answered your own question. It is my impression from reading this site that Michigan has better golf than Iowa already. Some of it quite reasonable. Besides, TD doesn't want to pay more taxes in Michigan. Let's face it, he is no Bill Gates.  

[Dan Kelly]

Dan:

Thanks for your response.  I'd do the same if I had millions in the bank.  Perhaps, someday.

However, if that is the only business model that allows somebody to build an affordable great golf course, it should not be surprising that there aren't many of them.

Understood.

I'm a pie-eyed dreamer.

[henrye]

That's why there is a separate list for "best affordable courses".  It could also be entitled "Top courses which are good, but not good enough to command top dollar".

What's the best course in the world where the highest visitor / guest fee is less than US $100?  I'll vote for Barnbougle Dunes.

So Barnbougle isn't good enough to command top dollar?

As you well know - quality of the golf course and the price it commands are often not related.

[Garland Bayley]

That's why there is a separate list for "best affordable courses".  It could also be entitled "Top courses which are good, but not good enough to command top dollar".

What's the best course in the world where the highest visitor / guest fee is less than US $100?  I'll vote for Barnbougle Dunes.

So Barnbougle isn't good enough to command top dollar?

As you well know - quality of the golf course and the price it commands are often not related.

Henry,

The Links of North Dakota don't command top dollar. I think you can figure out the analogy to Barnbougle and why Barnbougle is a bargain.  

EDIT Sorry Henry, I misread your post the first time. TIDE

[Andrew Mitchell]

The best two courses I have played where the green fee is less than $100 are St Enodoc (£50) and Silloth (£37)

[Tom_Doak]

Andrew:  50 pounds is now $105, so you'll have to cross St. Enodoc off the list.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Some courses I would consider great with peak rates under $100:

Harvester, Rhodes, Ia
The Quarry - MN
Big Fish, Hayward, WI
Wild Horse - NE

Jason,

I was going to nominate my own Quarry and also the nearby Wilderness.  Quarry is rated by GD as 19th best public in the country, but is out of the top 100, so it may be a near great at a $75-89 greens fee.  Ditto the Wilderness.

I think the most likely "philanthropists" that could build a very good course and keep rates low would be Govt. agencies like the IRRB, who built GR to increase the local tax base and spur development or the Native American Casinos, who want to fill hotel rooms and can afford to write off some of the golf costs, while spending enough to create something nice.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom - How about your own course, Beechtree?

Under $100, and a helluva lot of fun to play.

I'll also throw in Liddy/Dye/Klein's Wintonbury Hills.  $25 for 18 holes M-Th after 3pm is tough to beat.

[JC Jones]

...
Why not a Tom Doak trail in Michigan?

Speaking of, I played High Pointe 2 weeks ago for $30.  I hadnt played it in 6+ years and I was absolutely delighted the entire way around the course, at least for the first 17 holes....

Never the less, that is as good as it gets in my book.

I think you answered your own question. It is my impression from reading this site that Michigan has better golf than Iowa already. Some of it quite reasonable. Besides, TD doesn't want to pay more taxes in Michigan. Let's face it, he is no Bill Gates.  

TD pays Michigan income taxes regardless of where he builds his courses.  Not too mention, I'm sick of seeing Hills/Nicklaus/etc. courses popping up in this state.  We should be supporting our local archies, especially if they are some of the best in the world....  (I cant wait for JK to call me a butt boy after that comment)

[Peter Pallotta]

If by great we meant exceptionally good, there's no reason an area could not be blessed by a number of exceptionally good golf courses. If by great we mean the best of the lot, the question answers itself.  

Tom, might not a hypothetical homage to TOC built on a flat and smallish piece of reclaimed land end up being a great golf course? Would it be less great if you also built several other courses nearby?

Peter  

[Eric_Terhorst]

I played the Coore-Crenshaw "Warren Course" at Notre Dame last weekend, and hope to post some pics this week that will demonstrate it's a pretty solid entry at $49 to walk on the weekend

[Mark Manuel]

I haven't played there in a few years, but Hulman Links in Terre Haute Indiana is a steal at $28 for walking and $43 for riding.

Very nice golf course, probably deserves a spot on the list.

[Brad Swanson]

Do you guys seriously think that a typical blue collar person is going to pay over $40 for a round of golf (we're talking fly-over country $$s, not coastal $$s here)?  Gimme a break.

Cheers,
Brad

[Andrew Mitchell]

Andrew:  50 pounds is now $105, so you'll have to cross St. Enodoc off the list.

Tom
Let's hope the $ doesn't lose any more ground against the £ otherwise I'll have to cross Silloth off as well

[Tim Leahy]

La Purisima Golf Club-Lompoc, CA   60 m-th, 78 f-su to walk, 18 for a cart anytime
I would put Rustic Canyon down too, along with Rancho Park in LA.
It comes down to supply and demand, unless a municipality keeps the rates down near a big city or the course is out of the way they would have to be fools to not raise rates to meet demand. Torrey Pines and Harding Park visitor rates over $100 allow them to charge locals the low rates.
I think Bandon is a new phenominon, the great course in the middle of nowhere that can charge $200+ based on publicity from golf magazines and internet exposure through top 100 lists. In today's information age, there will be less and less hidden gems that are affordable.

[Jim Nugent]

Tom
Let's hope the $ doesn't lose any more ground against the £ otherwise I'll have to cross Silloth off as well

Don't hold your breath on the dollar.  

[Tony Petersen]

Wild Horse in NE
Links of ND in ND
Bully Pulpit in ND
The Quarry in MN
The Wilderness in MN
Riverdale Dunes in CO

All are public and under $100; I'm just not sure if they are in the same class as Bethpage Black and Pasatiempo