Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?

[Garland Bayley]

Eric,

I meant top 250 courses in the world. I was thinking about how to quantify great, and that is what I came up with.

[Garland Bayley]

What are the courses with Doak rating 9 or better that a blue collar person would play? Are there any?

What about Doak rating 8 or better?

[Eric Smith]

That's a reason why the word 'great' is so subjective when applied here.

I'd tend to agree with you about Top 250 in the world.  Those should all be pretty much G R E A T.

Someone who just walked off the 18th green at Black Mesa may have just said, "this golf course is great, maybe the best I've played." - I think I read that quote on their website!

[Garland Bayley]

...
Someone who just walked off the 18th green at Black Mesa may have just said, "this golf course is great, maybe the best I've played." - I think I read that quote on their website!

Not me!  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

World Woods Pine Barrens is a Doak 8. I doubt many blue collars would pay to play Pinehurst2, a 10, or Pebble Beach and Teeth of the Dog at Casa de Campo, both 9s.

 

[Eric Smith]

Here's another quote from Black Mesa's website: "It's on a par with Tom Doak's Pacific Dunes…”

must be great, to someone...

[Garland Bayley]

Here's another quote from Black Mesa's website: "It's on a par with Tom Doak's Pacific Dunes…”

must be great, to someone...

That is a quote from a GD article that GD has since taken down. GD has PD at 14, but BM is not in the top 100. Perhaps a bit of hyperbole.

[Rick Shefchik]

My answer to the question would be:

1. Yes, if it is subsidized by some governmental agency (i.e., Bethpage)

2. Yes, if it's in the middle of nowhere (i.e., Links of N.D.) where land prices are ridiculously cheap.

3. Yes, if it is owned by a rich person who doesn't need or want to make money (Rawls.)

Otherwise, no way.

We're talking about a game that is usually played over a minimum of 150 acres. What other leisure activity requires so many natural resources per participant, aside from yachting?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Black Mesa may not be a PD, but it deserves all the praise it gets. A fantastic course with a super who knows how to properly maintain it and you can play it 3 times for the price of 1 round at PD and still have some change left over.

I love PD, but there are probably no more repeats of that course in my immediate future, but Black Mesa I can and will do.

[Garland Bayley]

Craig,

With 36 holes days you can play it 4 times for less than the first round at Pacific Dunes.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Garland,

         Even better!  New Mexico has got to be one of the best states when it come to quality golf for reasonable prices.  Still not what I'd call 'blue collar" but attainable.

[Garland Bayley]

Rich,

Your thoughts on 1 and 2 are exactly what I have been thinking. I did not think of 3, but I hope Bill Gates does.

I realized that the criteria about guest rates such as those for out of staters at Bethpage don't apply to this thread, because they don't keep blue collar players off the course.

I think Bethpage Black and Chambers Bay both answer the question of the subject in the affirmative. Right now Pierce County residents can play Chambers Bay for $65 on Monday thru Thursday. I think some blue collar types would do that.

[Garland Bayley]

Craig,

At $65, I played with blue collar types at Black Mesa.
You have to remember that many of the construction trades make good money, and between projects will have time to play mid week if need be.

Perhaps the reason MI has some of the quality golf it has is because of the history of blue collar auto workers making good money.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I played Black Mesa with a bunch of GCA types, not too many blue collars where there that day.     A few of entrepreneur types like George Pazin who are the engine of this great country.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

You're correct, WH is a corporation with 1,000 shares outstanding, owned by 240 individuals.

As to SH, I was told by a fairly reliable source that DY had to acquire the land for a few holes on the back side.  I think it involved # 11 and # 12.  I'll recheck that.

For those having trouble with reading comprehension, might I suggest Rereading the title of this thread.

I indicated that I thought that the "American" model might be broken or flawed.

[Joe Bausch]

World Woods Pine Barrens is a Doak 8. I doubt many blue collars would pay to play Pinehurst2, a 10, or Pebble Beach and Teeth of the Dog at Casa de Campo, both 9s.

 

Steve:  great call on World Woods!  I wonder how many people know that during this time of year Pine Barrens can be played for 40 bucks, and $70 for both PB and Rolling Oaks?

[Phil_the_Author]

Another course that has gone unnoticed is Bethpage Red.

[Adam Clayman]

As to SH, I was told by a fairly reliable source that DY had to acquire the land for a few holes on the back side.  I think it involved # 11 and # 12.  I'll recheck that.

I indicated that I thought that the "American" model might be broken or flawed.

Pat, The only error was in your use of the word purchase. It was simply a clerical alteration on exactly which 1000 acres were part of the DY's original 1000 acres. I believe it was the land getting over to 14 green, which might have included the 12th.

As for the American Model being broken, I'm not sure. It might be broken, but, IMO, only because the cost to irrigate and maintain ANGC like conditions is so damn high.

Greatness is hard to quantify.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I second Bethpage Red, at least for NY residents. It's a much more enjoyable course than Black for mid-handicappers.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Bethpage Red is offered as an alternative to Bethpage Black and based on what I have read on this site many consider Red close to Black in quality.

I see Red is in the price range of $70s to $80s for non-NY residents and $30s to $40s for NY residents.

My question is for those who have played quite a bit at Cog Hill.  I have only played Cog Hill #4 (Dubsdread).

#4 is $138, while Cog Hill #2 (Ravines) is only $53.  How good is #2?  Is it a quality course, so that the $53 is a bargain compared to the $138 for #4?  Or is #2 just a decent course and really is only about 1/2 as good as #4.

It does appear that Bethpage Red may be the best course that has remained "blue collar", especially for those living on Long Island.

Is Cog Hill #2 the best "blue collar" course in Chicago?
[Or at least around south Chicago.  (Also, I am not confusing Lemont with the South Side of Chicago.  I know they are of different worlds.)]

[Garland Bayley]

Another course that has gone unnoticed is Bethpage Red.

I mentioned it in my first post. Edit (reply #25) tidE

[Garland Bayley]

I think Bethpage Black and Chambers Bay both answer the question of the subject in the affirmative. Right now Pierce County residents can play Chambers Bay for $65 on Monday thru Thursday. I think some blue collar types would do that.

Garland

Tom asked what is the top whack.  If you an use residents fees as top whack then loads of clubs that let guests on for £20-£30 could be cited.  IMO, the top whack is the highest price charged.  Same goes for Bethpage Black - non-residents is $100 plus the booking fee so its out.

Ciao

The subject is "American"! You neglected to include the part of my post where I suggested the premise was wrong. Even with private clubs, who would be inviting all the blue collar types to get the advantage of a reduced guest fee?

[Phil_the_Author]

Sorry Garland, "I mentioned it in my first post. Edit (reply #25) tidE"  I missed it.

[Jed Peters]

What the hell?

I've been to bandon 4 times, and EVERY time it's been affordable.

You just have to go the right time of the year.

Pebble and its company courses don't lower rates at all.

And the weather is basically the same.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jed:

Like I've said many times, and others have also said, Bandon remains "affordable" for most in winter - it's summer where it gets crazy.

And I'd beg to differ about the weather being basically the same as Pebble.... maybe some days....

 

But you're right about one thing:  Pebble sure as hell has no winter rates.  

TH