Was is the impact of wealth on the status of classic courses ?

[mike_malone]

  We were discussing the rankings of courses in the Philadelphia area last night and couldn't figure the high national ranking of Aronimink versus other classic courses in the area.

   I wondered if part of the reason  had to do with wealthy out of towners playing with their wealthy buddies in Philly years ago  spreading Aronimink's reputation outside of Philadelphia to a greater extent then around Philly.

  I wonder if this is a factor in the early rankings of classic courses across the country which makes it difficult for lesser known courses to get their due.

[JESII]

Mike,


Don't know the answer to your question, but Aronimink is very very good in my opinion.

I do think hosting tournaments has a beneficial effect on a courses ranking, but we're not talking about a bad course being ranked high. It's a good course.

[Mike Sweeney]

I actually never played Aronimink before this summer and it may have been the best conditioned course that I played this summer.

The fact that Sully likes it so much says a lot. The better players like it for its toughness. I would actually prefer Huntington Valley and maybe even RG over it, but I am not the player Jim Sullivan is and the Golfweek Classic list is not asking me.

Toughness and conditioning go a long way on all of this ranking stuff, and Aronimink certainly has those.

At the end of the day, the bottom 50 on any of these list are interchangeable and can be replaced by at least another 50 based on personal preference.

[JESII]

At the end of the day, the bottom 50 on any of these list are interchangeable and can be replaced by at least another 50 based on personal preference.

That's my thesis Mike...I prefer HVCC as well, and could go either way with RG versus Aronimink, but I am not willing to try to prove why.

I suspect Mike Malone thinks this is a travesty though, and I just might be interested in hearing why...

[mike_malone]

 I agree with Sweeney. That's why I think it is important to be in that top 50.

   BTW   I think the early Torresdale /Frankford is a more interesting course than Aronimink and was done by the same designer , but did not have the membership that Aronimink did.

[JESII]

I agree with Sweeney. That's why I think it is important to be in that top 50.

In the context of Rolling Green, HVCC or Aronimink...WHY?

[Chris_Clouser]

From what I can gather as an out of towner it is probably due to a few factors.

First it held the 1962 PGA and that goes a lot into the reputation of a club.  Regardless of what we like to think on here.  

Second it has the rep of being a tougher club and that better players like it better.  Hence possibly why Jim Sullivan likes it better.

Third the preponderance of what we get on this site out of Philly is a love of Flynn.  So I think that favortism by Wayne, Tom Paul and others takes the discussion away from Aronimink and other courses in the area.  Because of that I think Aronimink and other non-Flynn courses at times get painted with a brush that automatically says they are inferior solely because they are not Flynn designs.

This from someone who has only seen Philly CC, Rolling Green and Melrose in the Philly area.  So take it for what its worth.

[JESII]

Is Aronimink a slog for average golfers?

Let's limit average to average avid players...say 12 - 20 handicappers...

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

  I'm not clear about what you are looking for.

[mike_malone]

 The great majority of average players I have spoken to about Aronimink use two phrases " it is boring" and "haven't I play this hole before?"

[Joe Bausch]

Any chance that certain courses get a little extra bump because they have an interesting name?  Aronimink, IMO, is a really unusual and catchy name.  And the corollary might be that certain courses are downgraded because of a common style of name.  Just an idea, as crazy as it may seem upon first thought.  

[Mike Sweeney]

Mayday,

I think your theory gets blown apart by Atlantic City CC. Held a US Open, wealthy (second club) membership and I don't think it ever has touched Aronimink or HVCC locally or elsewhere for course reputation. That said, it is the one I want to get back and see most of all due to Doaks changes and length of time since my last play there.

[JESII]

Any chance that certain courses get a little extra bump because they have an interesting name?  Aronimink, IMO, is a really unusual and catchy name.  And the corollary might be that certain courses are downgraded because of a common style of name.  Just an idea, as crazy as it may seem upon first thought.  

Maybe Joe, but there are about 200 Pine Valleys in the country, but really only one...

[Dan Boerger]

I'll leave the endless ratings and rankings for others to discuss. Everyone's, of course, entitled to thier own opinion. But this much I'll say about Aronimink:

The green complexes are exceptional and varied, and that alone makes it hard for me to understand how someone would feel like they played the same hole over and over.

What may appear like a straightforward hole becomes more complicated when you wish to score and being on the correct side for your approaches matters significantly.

Any course is better when it's in better condition. Aronimink is as fine conditioned a course as any in this area -- and that inlcudes Merion and Pine Valley, which is saying something!

[Mark Bourgeois]

Corollary question: What is the impact of status on the wealth of modern courses?  Answer: Why else have rankings!

[mike_malone]

 My friend who was a member of RG and has moved away played RG yesterday. He played Aronimink today for the first time. He is an 18. He loved the facility. His comment about the course was that he felt it lacked variety compared to RG. He did not think that he was challenged to choose clubs to hit or angles to take. He values that variety which I assume came from his years of playing RG.


   I also value that variety; that's why I say T/F in its original form (and future potential if they don't implement that master plan) is a better course than Aronimink. How is Aronimink better than the variety provided in the play of the par fours at T/F , particularly the first three holes?

[mike_malone]

 Dan,

   I think the green complexes at T/F are more exceptional and varied than Aronimink. There are more elevation changes on the approach, more use of the terrain to create those front to back slopes in the greens, and more creative bunkering as to look and playability. The tee to green variety comparison is is a blowout in favor of T/F.

   And T/F is nowhere on these rankings.

[Dan Boerger]

Michael - I've only played T/F once, so I really can't comment on specfic greens and holes. Suffice to say I think it's a fine course, but no way would I give the T/F  for the complexity and variety in greens. Just my opinion. If you want to score at Aronimink, you'll need to take elevation into account on #1, #5, #6, #8, #9, #11, #18. That's plenty of elevation change for me. And I don't fully equate variety tee to green with necessarily an "always" better thing. Firestone, Torrey Pines, Seminole and even Winged Foot (which plays relatively flat) may lake variety (even compared to T/F) but are excellent courses, IMO.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Breaking news...

In light of Joe Bausch's question " Any chance that certain courses get a little extra bump because they have an interesting name? "


Torresdale/Frankford has decided to change its name to Lenni-Lenape GC!!!!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenape

 

[Ed_Baker]

Mayday,

I would agree that Aroniminks original reputation was enhanced as you suggest, but in my opinion it has also stood the test of time.
This last restoration/renovation that it went through by Ron Prichard cured a ton of the bastardizations that had happened to it in the 60's and 70's.

As far as the "average" player coming away with the impression that it is somewhat homogenous probably has more to do with the fact most of the par 4's are very long, so a day of driver,3 wood, wedge and more 3 putts than normal would get a little monotonous. A close look at each hole would reveal a very,very, good and diverse golf course in my opinion.

[wsmorrison]

I tried to play T/F one time with Adam Messix but my shoulder didn't last the first swing on the first tee so I walked and studied it while Adam played.  I know Aronimink pretty well (not nearly as well as TEP, Dave Miller or Dan Boerger but well enough).  What Aronimink has clearly over T/F is its greens and a far better environment and clubhouse.  

Forgetting the accoutrements, Aronimink's greens are among the finest I've ever seen from Ross.  There aren't many offset greens or fairways, especially with the par 4s.  Most are straight away with lateral bunkering down the fairways.  There are few line of play decisions to be made off the tee and few distance considerations.  Hit it as far as you want as long as you keep it down the middle of the fairway.  There aren't many holes where the ideal angle is from one side of the fairway or another.  The front 9 is generally clockwise as is the back 9.  There are some world-class holes (10 and 16) and some very good holes (2, 3, 7, 11, 18, etc).  The par 3s aren't a great collection although the long 8th is a tester and the 14th is solid.  

With the successful maintenance practices implemented by John Gosselin, the conditions have been exceptional.  Tee to green the course is above average but not top 100 like.  The greens are another story altogether.  The oral tradition around Philadelphia is that Ross was pissed he wasn't getting some of the better commissions in the area (Rolling Green, Phila Country and Huntingdon Valley in particular) so he wanted to build the most demanding course in the district.  He attempted to do this without enjoyable difficulty and a unity of demand.  Hit it straight and long off the tee.  The course has been stretched from its original 6600 yards and is now 7150 yards par 70.  Thankfully John has been limbing up trees and taking others down.  

It is well worth seeing if you're in the area.  A pretty solid Doak 7 in my mind.  There are a number of great courses in Philadelphia and maybe it does get overlooked because of some of the Flynns.  But Bob Crosby is a huge fan and he makes a compelling case.  I'm just not buying it  

However, I'll take HVCC, Phila Country and RGGC handily over Aronimink.  They're Doak 8s in my mind, well maybe PCC is a shade beneath those two.  Aronimink is still a welcome invite and in most cities and towns in the US, the golfing population would drool over it.

As for Mike Malone's contention that wealth plays a factor in spreading a high regard for a course.  I don't understand the premise.  Ross is simply more highly regarded than Flynn across the nation as his profile is much higher.  I also think he'd have a struggle to convince a significant minority that T/F comes close to Aronimink.  I think LuLu is a better course than T/F.  I might even go so far as saying that Gulph Mills is the best Ross in the Philadelphia area.  It is a fabulous golf course with greens as good as Aronimink (that is saying a lot) and much better tee to green.  Are there some shortcomings?  Yes, but overall it is my favorite Ross in the district.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

I can't add much to Wayne's good analysis.  When I played the course a few weeks ago the condition in my opinion was top 100 caliber.  I want to second his comments about the greens.  They need to be seen to appreciate.  My only complaints are the many straight holes.  But the shots into, around, and on the greens are astounding.  If you haven't played it wince they "restored" you need to get out there.

[Mike Hendren]

From both the private and public perspective, I would submit that Holston Hills and Lawsonia Links have benefitted from the absence of wealth.  Availability of capital inevitably leads to tinkering which has a nasty habit of turning into destruction.  Holston Hills might have gone the way of Ross' Richland CC in Nashville - housing development - had it not been on the "wrong" side of town.  

[Eric Franzen]

Aronimink is still a welcome invite and in most cities and towns in the US, the golfing population would drool over it.

I would stretch that a bit further and say that Aronimink easily would be one of the five best courses in Scandinavia if it was laid out over here.

Like Tommy says, there ain't much that you can add to Wayne's sharp analysis of the course. The greens still really intrigues me.

[JESII]

Aronimink is an interesting study really...and along the lines of where Mayday started this thread as well...the rap I always have heard is that it "lacks character" and is "long and monotonous"...well I haven't played there a ton, but probably 7 or 8 times through the years and I think it has a great variety of holes and if some of them seem too long...move up a set.

Haven't been in a few years, but it never seemed to get nice and firm the way I prefer it, that was my only ever knock on the joint...Wayne suggests that is being taken care of now...




"What is the impact of wealth on the status of classic courses?"

Rich guys think brown grass is a sign that they cannot afford to maintain it properly...and would not want their friends to think that. It's probably a tough cycle to get out of. Does maintenance preparation count in the "status" race?