[Bill Brightly]

OK, I am all for diificult bunkers, and I'll hit it out of grooves, fried eggs, and any other condition you want. But what about "No swing bunkers shots" where the back lip is so steep you cant get the club on the ball?

This happened to me AND my playing partner at Hudson National in a tourney. We both hit off the front face of a small deep bunker and the ball collected against the back edge, 8 inches straight down from the rough to the ball. I'll take my bogies for missing the green, but we both made double.

I think this is way too severe, what is the consensus here?

[corey miller]

Front left bunker on #17?  Not sure how to get out of that thing.

[Bill Brightly]

Nope, right side of 3rd green.

Back center pin, I bailed right just a little...

[corey miller]

I imagine that there a quite a few strange bunker shots At Hudson National.  Based on the fact that with most of the bunkers it is hard to find a place to even enter at the low point.  There are no low points but more like giant bathtubs.

[Bill Brightly]

I agree. But is this good design?

Seems like pure chance if you even have a shot at the hole on many greenside bunkers. I think it is bad design.

[Adam Clayman]

These are clearly my favorite shots. The more the impossible, the greater the quality of the shot when executed. One should live and get up for the impossible shot, rather than whine about their predicament.

[Bill Brightly]

Adam, when I said NO recovery, I did not mean extremely difficult recovery...

[Eric Pevoto]

In any direction?  I'm having trouble picturing the lie.

[corey miller]

That is why I mentioned a bunker on #17.  It was pointed out to me by a member that there is no way to get out.  Picture a small steep bunker with big lips entending well over the sand line.

I will go with bad design but I am sure Tom Fazio did this for a reason

[Bill Brightly]

Only way was sideways/backwards towards front of green (with pin in back of green...) Could not play backwards out of trap, ball was against edge.

Picture taking a spade and digging straight down on the outside edge of a trap, and placing your ball on the sand against the edge. The turf gives you no swing.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Picture taking a spade and digging straight down on the outside edge of a trap, and placing your ball on the sand against the edge. The turf gives you no swing.

Sounds like most of the bunkers in Scotland.

[Dennis_Harwood]

You can always deem unplayable and under penalty of one stroke drop elsewhere(no nearer the hole under Rule 28b or c) in the bunker or under stroke and distance from where your last stroke was played (Rule 28a)-

I don't know the course but one of the concepts of pot bunkers is that they create a hazard that must be played over or around, and sometimes a player hitting into such a bunker must return to the spot last played and after adding a stroke, figure out how to get to the hole around or over that hazard, or have truely exceptional skills (at some risk) to play out in any direction--

I see nothing wrong with such a design feature--

To assume that hitting into a bunker should still give the player an avenue to the hole, or even a way out, may frustrate some good designs-

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

There are about 8 or 10 bunkers at HN that would not be able to exist without bunker liners.  I have no problem with the classical pot bunkers, but these over-hanging lip bathtubs are wacky.  Because they use liners, the bottoms tend to have a minimal amount of sand, so you cannot perform the scoop excavation shot that allows you to escape the classic pot bunkers.  And there really is not a chance for the backward escape because they are sunken throughout.

[Mark Pearce]

Sounds like you could get it out, just not in the direction you wanted.  That's a really common occurrence on good links courses.  I don't have a problem with it at all, there's a hazard with a real penalty, you know it's there.  Hit a shot that risks going in (or such a bad shot tht a safe aim still goes in) and take the penalty if you get it wrong.  What's wrong with that?  The only time I'd have a problem is if you were forced to take the risk.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Who described which bunker as “having just enough room for an angry man and his niblick”.

At Muirfield this March I was in a fairway bunker where as a right hander I could only take aim due left.  Here the penalty was increased because the hay was immediately adjacent to the trap and I had to play into it.  My subconscious solved the problem by thinning the first shot which rebounded off the side wall allowing me to turn round and play sideways onto the fairway.  It was a true two shot penalty and the moral of the story is I got myself into that mess.

[Rich Goodale]

If you are talking about bunkers with high vertical front edges with flat sand beneath the edge, I agree that they should be cryit doon!  It is just poor design/and or construction and/or lazy maintenance.  I've seen it on high regarded links courses, but not on any of them that have well-informed superintendents.

Anything else goes!

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
I love the "recovery" shot as it is one of the most exciting shots in golf.  If every bunker were as you say (unrecoverable) then the design is probably over the top.  I've played HN and I don't think that is the case.  The bunker you mentioned might just be one you have to avoid.  

Remember, one of the favorite hazards of golfers is water (from which there is NO recovery).  Which is worse?
Mark

[Bill Brightly]

I do appreciate the responses, and I also love recovery shots. Thanks to RM Durantz for his explanation of the bunker liners.

If I played HN more often, perhaps I'd list this as a bunker  to be avoided...I try to avoid them all...but I had no way of knowing that this particular bunker was designed to have almost all shots roll back towards the back "spade-cut" edge. So I guess it's a shot and a half penalty. Funny thing is that the entire left side of green slopes severely away from the green, so it was avoiding THAT situation that got me into the "trap" bunker in the first place!    

[JC Jones]

Only way was sideways/backwards towards front of green (with pin in back of green...)

Sounds like you should have played to the front of the green, taken your two-putt bogey and moved on to the next hole.  

Bunkers are more than just sandy lies on the way to par

[PThomas]

Funny thing is that the entire left side of green slopes severely away from the green, so it was avoiding THAT situation that got me into the "trap" bunker in the first place!    

I wonder if Fazio designed the hole to deceive the golfer as you described Bill

[corey miller]

I don't think these bunkers were "designed" to be anything other than regular bunkers on the course.  They were however built in such a way that they may in fact change strategy on the golf hole.

[Scott Szabo]

I have seen two bunkers that would possibly fit what you are describing.

Ballyneal has one on the 18th hole, while very small, it is not impossible to get out of.  

Another is #9 at Bayside in Ogallala.

I'm not sure if they are "no recovery possible" bunkers, but quite difficult to play from.  I see no problem in having these, as long as there is a play.  It may not be in the intended direction, but still a play nonetheless.

Remember, they are hazards..........

[SPDB]

the bunker in question. Having a tough time visualizing the complaint.

CLICK HERE

[Scott Szabo]

In viewing the bunkers in SBerry's post, I don't see any that would be impossible to play out of.  Again, it may not be in the direction that you would want, but there would be a play.

The two that I am speaking of, and I wish I had pictures to show, are much smaller and don't often allow one to stand in the bunker.

I remember watching many Brisith Opens where the play is nowhere in the direction of the pin, sometimes even backwards.  

[corey miller]

Not sure you can tell from an aeriel.  What I do know is that a poster here, playing with a member of HN I am friends with, noticed that left 17 is impossible to get out of.  The poster received the same sort of criticism.

The next time I played HN the host took me to #17 and said "try to get out of it". Almost impossible, he had been showing it to everyone and it certainly did not look the part.

I have no clue about #3 but I suspect they present comparable problems to the golfer.

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