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Lester George

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Whats the Record for NLE
« on: October 16, 2007, 03:35:09 PM »
Just thinking about this from the boring land thread.  Whats the record for a golf course going from opening to NO LONGER EXISTS (NLE).  

I had one that lasted about 10 years, I'm sure thats not even close.  Lets have some answers from some of you architects out there as well.  

We have all had ones that started, or came close, that were never finished, buts lets try to stick to those that opened, operated, then closed for whatever reason.

Just curiuos.

Lester
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2007, 03:41:06 PM »
Lester,

As we have discussed, there have been a few courses that didn't even last to opening day.  The Norman course somewhere that Faz redid is the most famous example.

However, I renovated a course in TN before it opened, and it wasn't and still isn't famous.
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Phil McDade

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2007, 03:47:20 PM »
Lester:

I know of a 3,000-yard 9-holer (built for spillover from the course's original 18 down the road a bit) that went from opening to closing in about 10 years. Site of my much-bragged-about round of 44 (+8) with two clubs, including a putter.
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A.G._Crockett

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2007, 03:50:12 PM »
Bob Cupp had a course in Savannah called the Woodyard that was scrapped after just a few years (4 or 5?) and rebuilt on the same site by Greg Norman.  Can't remember the new name; might Savannah Quarters, or something like that.
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Kirk Gill

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2007, 03:58:33 PM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on October 16, 2007, 03:41:06 PM
The Norman course somewhere that Faz redid is the most famous example.

Quote from: A.G._Crockett on October 16, 2007, 03:50:12 PM
Bob Cupp had a course in Savannah called the Woodyard that was scrapped after just a few years (4 or 5?) and rebuilt on the same site by Greg Norman.


Karma's a, well, you know.
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John Foley

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2007, 04:25:20 PM »
There was a course here in Rochester built by Dave Thomas called the Belfry. Not sure of what the connection was between here & the course in England, possibly Thomas just using the name. It was completed about 2+ years ago. It was to be a public course, however it had a group of founding members who ponied up some cash to start the development.


The story as I know of it is that durring the construsction the developer died. His estate either could not reach or could not fully fund how the course should be completed & the run.
The land and course was then sold to developer in CA who had ties back here, with the thought of building homes, bringing Nicklaus Design in to redo the course. There was a big outcry that this could not happen as the town never granted permits to build homes. The course was finished and it opened for a few weeks for the members, but never for the general public however the new developer balked and cut his losses quickly. The remaining members could not make a go of it so the course folded, having never officially opening and it now sits there w/ nature overtaking it.


For anyone driving by Rochester on the Thruway you can see it on both sides just east of exit 46.

Here is the arieal

« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 04:26:13 PM by john_foley »
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Tony_Muldoon

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2007, 04:33:53 PM »
If you include rebuilds.

How long has the PGA at Gleneagles been open - it's currently undergoing a lot of surgery.


Another Ryder Cup venue, Celtic Manor, today is not the same course that they built to win the right to hold it. 7 years?
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2007, 04:45:05 PM »
John,

That looks more interesting than the original Belfry!   ;D
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TEPaul

Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2007, 07:18:45 PM »
One of the fastest from opening to NLE I've heard of is Steve Smyers Blue Heron Pines (East or West?) in New Jersey.

This is a really good golf course and I guess for economic reasons it was put on the NLE avenue because a bigtime New Jersey residential developer made the course owner a deal that was hard to refuse.

I think the developer may've delayed the NLE date for his own reasons but I doubt the course was free and clear on the survival list for more than about five years.

My understanding is that it has nothing at all to do with the quality of the golf course which most everyone thought was really really good.
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TEPaul

Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2007, 07:25:12 PM »
Historically probably the course that may've been the best architecture that suffered almost right out of the box was The Lido in Long Island.

This was a course that many said was one of the few very best in America and for one reason or another it just never really made it past its first few years as a vibrant entity.

The maintenance of the course got killed early on by WW1  and then the lack of care and committment by the principals. The course sort of hung on for years but according to Macdonald it never really had much of a chance maintenance-wise right out of the box.

It's particularly sad with The Lido because it was considered to be some of the finest architecture in the world.

Interestingly it was almost completely a totally man-made course.
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Chris Kane

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2007, 07:32:06 PM »
Has St Andrews Beach officially opened?  Last week someone suggested it never did.
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James Bennett

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2007, 08:00:32 PM »
The Grand Golf Club (Gold Coast, Queensland) - 1 day to NLE.

It did rise like the Phoenix some years later, and now exists.  From the Grand Golf Club web-site ...

"The Greg Norman designed course was first opened in 1990 after an investment of over $30 million by the then Japanese owners. Incredibly, after only one day, the gates were closed with insufficient funds for day to day operations.

Five years later, the new owners re-commissioned Greg Norman to upgrade the design. Adding eight more bunkers, bring the total to 92 on the course and reshaping the greens.

In October 1997 The Grand Golf Club was officially opened by Number 1 share holder and designer Greg Norman. The Grand has quickly developed into one of Australia's leading courses."


James B
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Mark_F

Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2007, 08:57:31 PM »
Quote from: Chris Kane on October 16, 2007, 07:32:06 PM
Has St Andrews Beach officially opened?  Last week someone suggested it never did.

No.
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David Stamm

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2007, 09:01:23 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on October 16, 2007, 07:18:45 PM
One of the fastest from opening to NLE I've heard of is Steve Smyers Blue Heron Pines (East or West?) in New Jersey.

 


Tom, wasn't there a USGA event there after it opened? I want to say the Pub Links?
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David Stamm

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2007, 09:03:29 PM »
I'll do some checking tonight, but Billy Bell has lead the most of in this category. Considering how much he lost altogether, Dev Emmet must be in this mix.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2007, 09:25:47 PM »
As mentioned above, the Norman course in AZ-Stonehaven- was completed and never opened as a high end public when it was sold to Discovery Land and bulldozed for a high end private by Fazio-club is now known as Mirabel- because the new owners thought the Norman course was "too difficult."

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Tim Gavrich

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2007, 09:42:16 PM »
Pistol Creek GC in Berlin, CT.  Opened in 2001, closed in 2004 or 2005.
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Andrew Summerell

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2007, 09:57:21 PM »
Quote from: James Bennett on October 16, 2007, 08:00:32 PM
The Grand Golf Club (Gold Coast, Queensland) - 1 day to NLE.

It did rise like the Phoenix some years later, and now exists.  From the Grand Golf Club web-site ...

"The Greg Norman designed course was first opened in 1990 after an investment of over $30 million by the then Japanese owners. Incredibly, after only one day, the gates were closed with insufficient funds for day to day operations.

Five years later, the new owners re-commissioned Greg Norman to upgrade the design. Adding eight more bunkers, bring the total to 92 on the course and reshaping the greens.

In October 1997 The Grand Golf Club was officially opened by Number 1 share holder and designer Greg Norman. The Grand has quickly developed into one of Australia's leading courses."


James B


James,

I was going to mention The Grand.

I'm glad you have the quotation marks there, as the course never impressed me.
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Phil_the_Author

Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2007, 04:57:04 AM »
There are 2 Tillinghast courses that are noteworthy.

The original Aronomink which opened in 1916 and closed 6-7 years later when Ross' Aronomink opened in a new location.

The Colonial Golf Club in Atlanta. Ground was broken on 10/1/1928 and the course opened for play in the summer of 1929. After the market crash in November, the course was closed just a few months later and was turned over to the city for back taxes.

A course was opened by the city on its site in 1934. It is known as the Bobby Jones Golf Club.

The biggest shame was that the course designed and built by Tilly was over 7,000 yards, had no rough and the creator of the project, Harrie Ansley, had dreams of it being a site that the USGA could use to host the Open and Amateur championships in the south.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2007, 09:46:54 AM »
Philip,

Is there anything left of Tillie's work on the present Bobby Jones GC?

I believe the Bobby Jones course was the work of Van Kleek during the depression, but I can't recall where I found that source.
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Tom_Doak

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2007, 10:32:33 AM »
Chris Kane:

No, St. Andrews Beach has never "officially" opened.  The reason is that the developers owed a lot of people contingent upon opening, and may have had more contractual obligations to the membership as well ... so they have been running "preview" play for the last three years.  [Which is why their current siutation is no surprise to anyone.]  Still, I don't think the course will go NLE -- it's just a question of finding someone stable to operate it.

John Foley:

Yours is a particularly scary story.

The shortest time span I know of is the course Rick Smith [and Warren Henderson?] designed next to Birch Run Outlet Mall in Michigan.  It was Rick's idea to give the boys something to do while the women shopped.  [His brother was the developer of the mall.]  I think it was open 3-4 years max; the range might still be operating.
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Brad Tufts

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2007, 10:39:05 AM »
The 3rd 9 at my home course, Tedesco, designed by Wayne Stiles.  Opened for the beginning of golf season in 1930, went back to nature in late 1936.  A few tee and green remnants remain, although a couple former holes now sit under the new high school in Swampscott, MA, and a couple former holes are now #s 14 and 15 on our current course.
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2007, 10:51:24 AM »
John Foley,

Dave Thomas designed the Belfry courses in the UK. I read in some trade or other that they(Thomas and the developers) decided to call this course 'The Belfrey (slight variation in spelling) International' so people would associate it with THE Belfry and not with Wendy's hamburgers.

p.s. The same article mentioned having 9 holes open in June '07, but I guess that didn't happen.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 11:06:18 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
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BCrosby

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2007, 10:53:35 AM »
There was an enormous boom in course construction in '29 and '30.

All of those courses collided head-on with The Great Depression and many sank without a trace only a coule years after they opened.

Some were designed by first tier architects, but they weren't around long enough to have left much of a documentary or photographic record. Because the clubs themselves often disappeared, their records tended to go down with them.  

So we'll probably never know much about them.

Bob  
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 12:06:55 PM by BCrosby »
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Evan_Green

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Re:Whats the Record for NLE
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2007, 11:03:12 AM »
The original Ocean course at the Olympic Club, originally considered to be the best course at Olympic, with its 11 holes on the ocean side of Skyline Blvd. was done in by mother nature (rain/landslides) in its first winter back in the 20's...

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