[Rich Goodale]

I've been reading some history on North Berwick, and from what can determine, most of the current routing was laid out in 1895, at which time the Redan hole was 266 yards, played from a tee near the current 14th green.  At that time, the shot crossed that of 4th, also much longer than today, at 243 yards.  The 4th was shortened some years later to solve the crossing problem, but it is unclear when the Redan was shortened too, to today's length of 192.  However, what I read implies that it was much closer to 1932 than 1895 when this happened, which would seem to imply that the hole that CBM "copied" was not a par-3 but a short 2-shot hole (with roughly the same green complex as today--although it was not as long).

If this is true, CBM was the first to build a "Redan" (as we know it) at NGLA, and the current Redan may be a replica of CBM!

Any help or thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance

Rich

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

Have you ever played The Creek, in Locust Valley, NY ?

The first hole, a shortish par 4 has a Redan green and surrounds.

While the green doesn't have the pronounced elevation that exists at NGLA and NB, it is elevated above the fronting fairway, the flanking roughs and rear.

I'd be interested to learn more about NB's version as a par 4 and to see how similar it may have played when compared to the first hole at The Creek.

[BCrosby]

Interesting.

The 5th (par 4) at Mid-O has a Redan green. So it's pretty clear that CBM didn't think the concept applied only to par 3's. (Unless the current green is post-CBM.)

Bob  

[Rich Goodale]

Pat

Just from what I can read into the routing diagram for 1895 (6,095 yards, BTW--pretty long for a pre-Haskell course), the Redan would be played from the seaside next to the 14th green and the drive would be blind and uphill.  The huge Redan bunker--about 30-40 yards short of the green, and cut into the side of a hill--would be in the player's mind, and while the best players might be able to take it on, most players would probably play short.  As there is no mention in the club history I have of the hole being shortened until the relatively minor 1932 makeover by Hutchinson and Sayers, one can assume that it played at 266 when CB visited prior to NGLA, and as that was after the introduction of the Haskell, it was probably reachable by the better players, but at that length only by the "draw it onto the higher ground to the right and let it trickle down to the hole" strategy that we talk about on here so often for present-day Redans.

Rich

PS--No, I've not played the Creek.
PPS--as you must know by now, the 4th at NGLA is downhill

[Rich Goodale]

Just to add.  No evidence that CBM ever went to or heard of Dornoch, but the 15th there, designed by OTM in 1886, is effectively the same hole as the Old 266 yard Redan (with a huge mound in place of the fairway bunker and the same green) and, possibly Bob, the 5th at Mid-Ocean (never been there either).  

R

[Phil_the_Author]

Rich,

When the hole was shortened in the 30's, how was it shortened? In other words, is the green complex the same as the one in the 1890's and they just put in a new tee?

If so, then I would say that it is still the Redan that CBM copied; just a bit shorter.

[JESII]

Is that like getting "strategy" from the green backwards as opposed to from the tee forwards?

[Rich Goodale]

Philip

Just moving the tee 72 yards forward.  Green complex was the same (as far as I know).

Jim

Hitting a 266 yard blind shot to any green is very different from hitting a semi-blind 192 yard shot, at least for me.  Playing from the women's tees would make it different too.  All of those length tees require different strategies for different players, assuming you are hitting to the same green, so is that "green backwards" or "green backarsewards?  You tell me!

[Dan Moore]

Darwin in the 1910 version of Golf Courses of the British Isles states CBM more or less faithfully copied the features of the the famous "Redan" at N. Berwick on the National Golf Course on Long Island.  

[Sean_A]

Rihc

I just checked Hutchinson's magnificent 1897 British Golf Links.  Hutchinson states "The hole can easily be reached in one from the tee..."  Also, judging from the photo, the tee looks to be in a very similar position of today.  It is likely that the Redan we know today was created sometime between 1877 & 1895.  Based on this, I would speculate that no, CBM did not invent the Redan par 3.  

Ciao

[JESII]

First of all Rich, it's BASSACKWARDS not BACKARSEWARDS...seriously.

Second of all, if the green's the same, it's just a mini-version of the 266 shot...remember, we agreed on this idea yesterday, let's not screw it up!

[Rich Goodale]

Dan and Sean

The offical club history has the length of the Redan in 1895 as being 266 yards (and this is confirmed by a routing diagram in the book).  It also talks about shortening the 4th hole c. 1910-1915 (by 68 yards) in order eliminate the crossing between the two holes (the old 4th tee was near the 3rd green), which implies that the 266 yard Redan was still in place then.   Maybe CBM (who turned 60 in 1906) and Hutchinson were playing off the ladies tees......

I still have an open mind on this.

Rich

[Rich Goodale]

Jim

I'll compromise on BARSEACKWARDS.

Rich

PS--I knew I would regret agreeing with other people yesterday.....

[Sean_A]

Dan and Sean

The offical club history has the length of the Redan in 1895 as being 266 yards (and this is confirmed by a routing diagram in the book).  It also talks about shortening the 4th hole c. 1910-1915 (by 68 yards) in order eliminate the crossing between the two holes (the old 4th tee was near the 3rd green), which implies that the 266 yard Redan was still in place then.   Maybe CBM (who turned 60 in 1906) and Hutchinson were playing off the ladies tees......

I still have an open mind on this.

Rich

Rihc

Its quite strange.  If you back the tee up on Redan 70 yards you end up somewhere near the Perfection green or halfway down the 4th hole (completing changing the angle of the Redan).  Of course, the other possibility is that the greensite for Redan is different.  I have never heard mention of this greensite being on the far side of the wall which the 16th crosses.  None of these seem likely scenarios.

My best guess is that the Redan of today was created when sweeping changes were made to the course in 1895.  Perhaps the club history is referring to the course as it looked before the mega changes of 1895.  One thing is for certain.  Hutchinson published his book in 1897.  The pic of the Redan tee is the same as today.  Hutchinson states the hole was easily reachable in one and that four was no poor score on the hole.  If Hutchinson is combined with Darwin's claim that CBM more or less faithfully reproduced the features of the Redan for NGLA, then a case for Redan as a par 4 by the end of the year in 1895 is most unlikely.  It is almost certainly the case that Redan wouldn't have been a par 4 by 1897.  

I think you need to seek your fame and fortune on another hypothesis or alter the years of your current hypothesis.

As an aside, one of the pix shows Perfection and calls it an Alps.  The dune which rests in front of the green certainly looks taller than today!

Ciao    

[Rich Goodale]

Sean, Sean, Sean....

I'm not seeking fame or fortune, just the truth--and I know how fast and loose some of those old dead guys were with the truth....

The NB club history is crystal clear that the tee for the Redan in 1895 was next to what is now the Perfection green (itself built in the 1895 "enlargement"--as the club called it--from land not previously used and next to the sea).  Prior to that, what is now "Perfection" was two holes, the first one a 180 yard "Alps" hole, and the second one a 175 yard one called "Perfection" with a green just behind the current Redan tee.

Let me postulate something:

1.  Hutchinson played (and got a photograph of) the Redan prior to 1895, when it was a 210 yard hole, with a tee fairly near the current one.
2.  The 1895 "enlargement" passed old Horace by.  After all, his book is more a gazzeteer than a scholarly work.
3.  CBM played the hole in the 1870's when it was a 210 yard hole, and didn't revisit it in his early 20th century travels, or did so and chose to copy the old hole rather than the new one.

Capice?

Ricardo

[Sean_A]

Sean, Sean, Sean....

I'm not seeking fame or fortune, just the truth--and I know how fast and loose some of those old dead guys were with the truth....

The NB club history is crystal clear that the tee for the Redan in 1895 was next to what is now the Perfection green (itself built in the 1895 "enlargement"--as the club called it--from land not previously used and next to the sea).  Prior to that, what is now "Perfection" was two holes, the first one a 180 yard "Alps" hole, and the second one a 175 yard one called "Perfection" with a green just behind the current Redan tee.

Let me postulate something:

1.  Hutchinson played (and got a photograph of) the Redan prior to 1895, when it was a 210 yard hole, with a tee fairly near the current one.
2.  The 1895 "enlargement" passed old Horace by.  After all, his book is more a gazzeteer than a scholarly work.
3.  CBM played the hole in the 1870's when it was a 210 yard hole, and didn't revisit it in his early 20th century travels, or did so and chose to copy the old hole rather than the new one.

Capice?

Ricardo

Rihc

So what difference is there in the version CBM played and the one Hutchinson played?  

Besides, old Horace specifically mentions the sweeping changes of 1985.  Finally, to think something slipped by old Horace seems a rather odd thing to say.  The man was connected to the great and good of the game!  BTW - Old Horace took the photos.

You may be onto one thing.  Old Horace states that Redan crosses the course.  This would lead one to believe that the 4th was shortened after the book was published.

Ciao  

[Rich Goodale]

old Horace specifically mentions the sweeping changes of 1985.  

Damn!

That guy WAS prescient!

[Dan Moore]

Check this out.  You'll have to copy and paste.  

http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1914/gi4h.pdf#xml=http://www.aafla.org:8080/verity_templates/jsp/search/xmlread.jsp?k2dockey=/mnt/docs/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1914/gi4h.pdf@aafla_pdf&serverSpec=localhost:9900&querytext=redan

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Dan.  I had read that before, and I have played the hole.  The fact that CBM defined the hole as he did pretty much confirms the thesis in the title to this thread.  The club historian at North Berwick defines it rather as.....

"A defensive field work with two faces forming a jutting angle"

.....which is the traditional military definition.

None of the few Redans I have seen in the US (including National) really has the fortress aspect of the original, which means nothing except that (IMHO) Macdonald chose not to consider it as the defining feature.  Rather he took the green's shape and slope as defining HIS "Redan."

And, I'm still not convinced that he ever saw the 1895-1932 version.....

R

[Mike_Cirba]

Rihc,

It believe it was actually Hugh Wilson, travelling overseas for health reasons, who first saw the redan in its pre-1985 form and suggested that Macdonald's course could use something like that....probably right after the Alps hole.

[Rich Goodale]

Mike

Are we talking the Alps hole at NGLA or the Alps hole at Merion?  Come to think of it, the 11th at Merion could be a replica of the 266 yard North Berwick version of the Redan........

Rich

[Dan Moore]

CBM visted N. Berwick in 1906 on his quest to find the best holes for his ideal course.  His caddy advised playing a cleek.  Depending on the wind CBM said the hole would call for anything from driver to light iron.  It was clearly a one shot hole when CBM visted.  

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Dan

I'm assuming you are referring to some reference other than the one you kindly posted, which is clearly describing the NGLA "Redan."  I'll take your word for it that CBM played it as a one-shotter in 1906, but I am still perplexed as to why the Club's history should imply otherwise.  My across the street neighbor is a long-time member at NB, and I'll ask him if he knows anything about it.

Cheers

Rich

[Dan Moore]

Rich,

CBM described playing the N. Berwick Redan in 1906 in Scotland's Gift.  

[Rich Goodale]

Maybe he was numerically dyslexic like Arble.

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