Golf Week Best New Courses-let the fur fly

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB, et. al.,

The book on Sebonack is terrific.
It's the kind of book that someone interested in how the course was created, designed and built would want to have.

It's unfortunate that more new courses don't chronicle their creative and architectural histories.

"The Miracle on Breeze Hill" and "Shadow Creek" may have started the modern trend of putting us in the "mix" from A to Z

I wouldn't tie Sebonack's rating to the existance of the book.

Craig Sweet,

Are you suggesting that all private courses be stricken from the rankings ?

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick...private courses stricken from the ratings?  Hmmmm.....that would be a terrible hardship for the ego's of the members.

No, I think all ratings are useless and silly.

However, I truly feel great golf courses should be way, way more accessible to the average golfer. A numerical rating in a magazine is meaningless because it does not tell the golfer anything at all about WHY the course is great.  Playing the course is an education and having more educated golfers, as it pertains to architecture, strategy, etc, is a good thing.  

[John_Conley]

However, I truly feel great golf courses should be way, way more accessible to the average golfer.

How do you accomplish this?  It isn't easy to run them as a business.

Some examples:

* the Links at Red Mike Ranch - sold at auction for barely more than $1,000,000
* World Woods - it has been open for nearly 15 years and still suffers from inconsistent conditioning because they can't generate enough revenue to offer 'country club' turf quality
* Chambers Bay - costs $150 for non-county residents
* Seaside at Sea Island, Georgia - Tom Fazio's renovation work ran $14,000,000 unless someone was inflating the number

I'm all ears.

[Adam Clayman]

Way way more accesible to the average golfer?

 When I was an average golfer, I found great Public courses that ignited my interest. There shoud be no expectation, that someone owes someone else a round, especially at a private facility, just because they want to further some personal agenda.
  When I bring certain people out and expose them to great, they do seem changed, their golfing spirit is altered. But then there are those who FLW called "asleep" and only want to know why there are no downhill holes.

[TaylorA]

What is the title of the new Sebonack book?

[Craig Sweet]

John...I said nothing about green fees....though the more expensive the less likely the average Joe will play the course....

I am talking about all these real good golf courses being built and only a handful of people with the scratch, or the connections, will ever play....the average Joe is NOT buying a home at the Rock Creek Cattle Co....the average Joe is not going to know someone that can gain him access to Sand Hills..

Do you want people to experience what a truly great course is? Do you want people to know the difference between a Redan green and a cape hole?  Do you think it matters if someone has their eyes open to how strategy comes into play along with firm and fast conditions?  

The ratings in the magazines give a meaningless numerical number to a course most people have never heard of, much less seen.  It does nothing to enhance their knowledge of what makes a course great. It seems like a lot of effort and money wasted and does nothing for the game of golf.

[Jordan Wall]

Its good to see Chambers on the list.  

I cant really say if it deserves that high of a ranking or not, because I have not played most of the other courses on the list, but it is definitely better than Pronghorn, ranked at #8.  Pronghorn is good though, and will stay good as long as it doesn't get ruined by housing.  The Nicklaus course will have many houses built around it, and doing so to the Fazio course would be terrible.  I hope it doesn't happen.


p.s.  The Home course at #49...it wasn't really all that good, IMO.
Not bad, but not really that good either.  I'm surprised it made the list.

p.p.s. Erin Hills way (!) down there at #26

[Jerry Kluger]

Has anybody played Spring Creek GC in Virginia - what can you tell us about it?

[Adam Clayman]

I don't know Craig, Here's average High School kid, who seems to be able to get on.

Chambers Bay placement does shoot down Craig's statements . It does and will matter to the golfing public in PNW.

[Craig Sweet]

Adam...certainly you can find public access courses that the average Joe can play...and heck, I will even venture that some will travel across the country, shell out the money for airfare, to play Bandon....but, of the top 10 courses listed, eight are damn near totally inaccessible to the average Joe because they are private or involve purchasing a home/lot...

Here in Montana we are about to be blessed with several tremendous golf courses, but I can not see how the average Joe will ever be able to play any of them.

If Doak's RCCC makes the list in 2008 so what?  A van load from my local muni won't be going over to play it, and that means a van load won't have any idea why that course is "rated"?

Sadly, to the average Joe, Augusta is a "great" course. Not because they have first hand knowledge that comes from playing it or walking it, but because it LOOKS so darn pretty on TV...

[Craig Sweet]

Adam..no offense to Jordan, but he is "connected", and that counts for a lot when trying to gain access to some of these courses.

[Garland Bayley]

Adam,

I would be surprised if Jordan has ever payed the $150 green fee at Chambers Bay. I may be completely out to lunch on this, but since he caddies there, I suspect that is how he gets to play it, rather than coughing up $150.

[Doug Wright]

I'm a little surprised to see Three Crowns GC, Casper, Wyoming (RTJ II) on the list (#29). I hadn't heard anything about that course to make us hanker to make the drive north to see it.

[Brad Klein]

Love it. Craig Sweet criticizes the list because "average Joes" can't play our top-50 new courses, and then Doug Wright raises questions about Three Crowns in Casper, Wyo., which costs all of $50-$60 for anyone to walk on and play.

[Garland Bayley]

Love it. Craig Sweet criticizes the list because "average Joes" can't play our top-50 new courses, and then Doug Wright raises questions about Three Crowns in Casper, Wyo., which costs all of $50-$60 for anyone to walk on and play.

And what tiny fraction of "average Joes" live in Casper, Wyo.?

[Brad Klein]

And then Garland Bayley suggests we take into account population density distribution in the U.S. while composing the list -- even though it's nothing but a print out of what 450 raters have voted on.

[Tom_Doak]

Craig:

I don't really understand where you're coming from.  Of course, everybody would like to see more great courses available for public play ... but it's rare for those projects to be able to make it financially.  

Bandon works because it's built on sand, because the land was dirt cheap for oceanfront property, and because they have a 12-month golf season.  None of that is true for anyplace in Montana.  If you don't have a bunch of members willing to pay $$$ to finance the construction costs, instead of paying for them at $60 a pop, those projects just don't happen, period.

So, why complain about the projects that DO happen?  It's not like they are holding back the ones that don't.

[Voytek Wilczak]

What is the title of the new Sebonack book?

"Building Sebonack"

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Sebonack-Bradley-Klein-Haralson/dp/0978717201

[Voytek Wilczak]

I am surprised to see that Liberty National (19) and Dismal River (42) were not ranked higher.  Liberty National is not my favorite hat but it is better than 19.  I really liked Dismal River as I found it this August in spite of some of the weaknesses I mentioned on the thread.  42 seems a tad low.

I am surprised that either wound up that high after being skewered on gca.com.

[Dan Kelly]

Doug Wright raises questions about Three Crowns in Casper, Wyo....

And the answers are...? (I don't believe that Counselor Wright's was a leading question -- if it was a question at all.) I believe it was a benign attempt to get information from anyone -- including you, Brad -- who might have it.

Here's my question:

How many GolfWeek raters voted on each of those courses? I think that would be interesting information to share.

[Garland Bayley]

And then Garland Bayley suggests we take into account population density distribution in the U.S. while composing the list -- even though it's nothing but a print out of what 450 raters have voted on.

Nope, that's not what I was suggesting at all.

[John_Conley]

John...I said nothing about green fees....though the more expensive the less likely the average Joe will play the course....

Craig, you said it right there.  And then Tom Doak makes the point later.  If you build courses where the model is for a high green fee you run the risk of not getting enough play.  At a lower price point you may have a viable business model but then aren't as able to build a course that makes a list like this.

Brad points out it DOES happen.  In Casper, Wyoming of all places.  

I don't see these lists as silly, but I'm a guy that keeps each GOLF Magazine issue with their Top 100 in the world going all the way back to when Muirfield was on the cover in the early 1980s.

There is a market for lists like this.  People like me enjoy seeing them.  Conversely there are also people that don't give two shakes.  My dad, for example, didn't see golf as anything he would spend more than 20 bucks (today's equivalent of about 40) to enjoy.  Fot those in that camp, they are free to ignore the publication.

Just to single out a guy, I'm guessing Cary sees this list and starts planning a trip for next year.   He's not alone.

Craig, it seems like someone pissed in your corn flakes today.  Are you ready to assume Crusty's place as our resident curmudgeon?

For one moment put yourself in the shoes of a developer.  If someone like Jeff Brauer or Keith Foster or Kelly Moran were recognized on lists like this and you found you could hire them for less than Nicklaus or Fazio or Jones and still get a top quality product you'd probably consider that option.

If lists like this were silly it seems that nobody would be able to discern who was doing a good or bad job.  It doesn't go down just 10 places.  I'd even argue that it highlights the efforts of those in the design profession.

[Garland Bayley]

Tom,

Average Joes don't play Bandon Resort. However, I suspect the average Joes of Bandon area will play Bandon Crossings. Is your one time fee to create Pacific Dunes so much higher than Hixson's that it necessitates charging five times as high a green fee?

[Brad Klein]

Minimum of 6 votes, with some getting as many as 85.

[Tim Leahy]

Stone Eagle at #28? That must be some top 25. Personally I don't know if there is a better overall course in all of Palm Springs area than Stone Eagle.