Golf Week Best New Courses-let the fur fly

[Andy Troeger]

I would guess that quite a few members of this board who have never been to Bandon have failed to visit there in part because of the expense.

That certainly is part of it for me, along with the weather during the discounted season and especially that there is no way to get there in less than about 12 hours of traveling even from Albuquerque by the time you take a connecting flight and drive for hours more. I'd love to see the place some day but its not a high priority due to those three constraints.

Note though that with Bandon the expense is as much in getting there as it is the golf courses themselves.

If you want bang for the buck come play Paa-Ko Ridge and Black Mesa. I'm a little spoiled I guess by the sun and under $100 great public golf here...

[Tim Bert]

I think both sides are a bit off here.

I agree that Joe is a bit skewed in his assessment of the average golfer.  At the same time, I don't think that those arguing against him have a very realistic perception of how Bandon is viewed by the average golfer.

I don't think the average golfer is very aware of Bandon's existence.  Seems unlikely, given all the press it receives and given all the time we spend talking about it here.  At the same time, I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with the average golfer where the conversation turns to favorite golf course or best golf trip.  Almost without fail, when I mention Bandon, I get blank stares or remarks that sound a lot like "Oh, isn't that nice."  I've had several of these conversations with public golfers and private golfers of various skill levels.  If, in the same group, someone mentions Torrey Pines or the RTJ Trail as their favorite course (not picking on these courses; just using a few real-life examples) then it is a conversation starter.  

While the courses may be cost prohibitive for the average golfer to play on a regular basis, I don't think cost is the reason the general golfing public is still largely unaware of the courses.  

As for Dan's comment that many here haven't been to Bandon due to expense.  That may well be true, but I bet an equal number haven't been there because of priority, time, family obligations, travel expense (as opposed to golf expense) or lack of awareness of off-season rates.  And, by the way, while some on here may fit the mold of "average golfer" from a demographic perspective, none here can claim to be the "average golfer" when it comes to golf course awareness.

You can still spend a night at the resort and play 36 holes during peak season for less than one round at Pebble Beach, which isn't a bad deal depending upon your priorities.  I'd personally prefer to take a nice golf trip every year and drive my Civic into the ground.  Others prefer shiny, fancy cars.  Everyone chooses to use their disposable income differently.  I tend to fall in the camp of believing that a once-in-a-lifetime trip to Bandon is affordable for most golfers that place a priority on travel golf.  

[John_Conley]

Kalen:

So what?  You are so worried about the average income of Bandon golfers and whether it exceeds national averages, but it really doesn't matter.

Go to any CCFAD charging the higher fees in any market and you'll notice that their clientele has an income that exceeds the income of this 'average golfer' and the 'average American'.  As Joe says, who cares about the average American when it doesn't apply.  Golf's cost eliminates many - and that's not going to change.

Bandon is special because anyone willing to go there and drop the money will enjoy a world-class experience.  Instead of taking shots at Bandon, why not get your Irish up at the scores of mediocre courses that command over $100 for dressed up crud.

The big cost isn't room and golf for Bandon, it's getting there.  Does it really matter if a Scottish course charges 30 pounds or 70?

I can find a bazillion guys that wouldn't take the trip from Florida to Bandon.  They just don't like golf that much.  So there's your average.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

I have no beef with the resort at all, I'm not sure where you read that.  Its hands down the most spectacular piece of golfing links that I've ever seen.  I've been there twice and can't wait to get back again. Yes, the prices are high and my main point was that calling it "affordable" is laughable at best.  And to further claim that the resort attracts mostly average joe golfers is absurd.

You are correct, it often does cost more just to get there than play.  And I certainly believe you when you said you can find a bazilion guys from Florida who would never make the trip.  I know almost the same amount here in Utah who wouldn't make the trip either and its a helluva lot closer from here.

As for me playing $100 over-priced courses, you got the wrong guy.  Public golf here in Northern Utah is a great value with many options and good courses. I rarely pay over $40 to play a round in these parts.  By all means, come on and out and give it a try, I don't think you'll be disappointed.  

[John_Conley]

Kalen, that's the point.  I don't want to go to Utah to play.  If I take a golf trip there are a few places on my list before Utah.  If Utah is your reference point you are way off on what people will pay.

I used to work at a course that had vacationing clientele paying $80 (15 years ago) to play.  Some people from small towns in Iowa were paying just slightly more than that for a season pass to their 9-holer.  So what?

You say Bandon isn't affordable.  I say it is because there aren't very many world-class courses that will let you on for less.  Who's right?  It doesn't matter.  Bandon's busy and will stay that way.

Will you at least concede that a 'destination resort' with a price-point of sub $50 doesn't make sense?  Not many people - or at least not enough - made the trek to 'affordable' Red Mike.

[Joe Bentham]

Kalen--
Because the guy who plays 6 times a year and thinks CB Macdonald invented the chicken McNugget wouldn't spend 1500 bucks on a golf vacation has no relevance to me or our discussion here.  

You don't have to take my word for it, Bandon is a good value.  Do some research.  Compare it to Pebble, Whistling Straits, Pinehurst, Sea Island, etc. and get back to me.

[Walt_Cutshall]

This has to be an all-time top ten threadjack.

No kidding. I thought I had clicked on the wrong thread!  

[Sean_A]

I think both sides are a bit off here.

I agree that Joe is a bit skewed in his assessment of the average golfer.  At the same time, I don't think that those arguing against him have a very realistic perception of how Bandon is viewed by the average golfer.

I don't think the average golfer is very aware of Bandon's existence.  Seems unlikely, given all the press it receives and given all the time we spend talking about it here.  At the same time, I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with the average golfer where the conversation turns to favorite golf course or best golf trip.  Almost without fail, when I mention Bandon, I get blank stares or remarks that sound a lot like "Oh, isn't that nice."  I've had several of these conversations with public golfers and private golfers of various skill levels.  If, in the same group, someone mentions Torrey Pines or the RTJ Trail as their favorite course (not picking on these courses; just using a few real-life examples) then it is a conversation starter.  

While the courses may be cost prohibitive for the average golfer to play on a regular basis, I don't think cost is the reason the general golfing public is still largely unaware of the courses.  

As for Dan's comment that many here haven't been to Bandon due to expense.  That may well be true, but I bet an equal number haven't been there because of priority, time, family obligations, travel expense (as opposed to golf expense) or lack of awareness of off-season rates.  And, by the way, while some on here may fit the mold of "average golfer" from a demographic perspective, none here can claim to be the "average golfer" when it comes to golf course awareness.

You can still spend a night at the resort and play 36 holes during peak season for less than one round at Pebble Beach, which isn't a bad deal depending upon your priorities.  I'd personally prefer to take a nice golf trip every year and drive my Civic into the ground.  Others prefer shiny, fancy cars.  Everyone chooses to use their disposable income differently.  I tend to fall in the camp of believing that a once-in-a-lifetime trip to Bandon is affordable for most golfers that place a priority on travel golf.  

Tim

Its probably quite true that if the Bandon Resort were located a few hours down the road or even a short flight away, I would have stumped up the money to play and stay.  As Bandon is located in bum ^%7 nowhere which makes it time consuming and costly to access even if one is anywhere near Oregon, I haven't made a visit there high on my list of things to do.  Mind you, when one tots up the cost to get there and adds in high green fees and resort costs, it doesn't help sell the idea of visiting - at least to me.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Joe has confused the length of a tip with the breadth of ones wealth.

[Kalen Braley]

John_C and Joe,

Understood that Utah is not a golf destination per se, never claimed it was.  There are likely many locations around the US that have good and inexpensive quality courses.

As for Bandon, I will agree, it is a world class destination. If you want to claim that Bandon is the best bang for your buck for expensive golf trips, then I wouldn't even argue against that. But just because its one of the "better priced" expensive options does not make it affordable.  I'm sure trips to Pebble, Whistling Straights, etc, wouldn't be considered affordable either.

One last example before I step away:

Is a $1 million dollar house in carmel, CA "affordable" because most of the other houses in the area cost more than that?  $1 Mill is still $1 Mill and the vast majority of people could never afford it.

[Jed Peters]

Regarding Bandon's "average joes" playing it and taking golf vacations--

Go there in the winter.

There are fathers and sons, locals in jeans, people from all over washington, oregon, and northern california who are not "high income" but rather the average joes.

They take their pull carts, hitch up their jeans and yellow slickers (Joe can attest) and play their way around Pac Dunes.

It's awesome.

[Craig Sweet]

Bandon:  Someone is confusing affordable and accessible.

Of the golf courses listed....TOP 10.....in the original post that began this thread ONLY TWO were accessible to the average Joe....Bandon and Chambers Bay....are they affordable? That depends.

As this thread has shown, it doesn't really matter where a course is ranked....what matters is whether it is accessible and to some extent affordable....

Rankings are like masturbation.

[Jed Peters]

Bandon:  Someone is confusing affordable and accessible.

I dunno, I think $365 for 2 nights, 2 rounds, 2 breakfasts and one dinner is a pretty "affordable" price.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jed:

I said way way way back in this that Bandon remains affordable in winter.  It's summer that's the problem.

And I was there with a group of other GCAers this past February, and well... while it was great and I don't regret it, even with the awful weather we got... it was not at all as you describe in terms of the clientele.  Oh, I don't doubt it was like that at one point - heck, it was like that in summer, several years ago - but the days of the common man showing a large presence at Bandon are OVER.  We sure saw very few average joes as you describe.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Every once in a while I see a guy with a Bandon hat.  They are not average Joes...in fact I often go out of my way to strike up a conversation making them anything but an average Joe from that day forward.

[George Pazin]

Sounds like you guys have no common ground on who Average Joe is - you're each defining him differently, and he probably defies all of them!

Many people who love golf don't take golf vacations. Many people who take golf vacations are not exactly Average Joes. You figure it out.



John Kirk -

Please tell us more about The Madison Club, I don't recall reading anything on here about it. Where, who, etc. Thanks!

[Daryl David]

Back on topic:

The top ten is very solid.  I expected to see Pronghorn - Fazio even more highly rated.  I have only seen photos and heard reports, but it looks to be a premier Fazio course.

Between the high ranking here and Golf Digest's Best for 2006, I want to see The Concession.  Tiger B. says it's great.

Back off topic:

I'm sure "Average Joe" Bentham plays the Bandon courses on Monday, when caddies get to play.

Back on topic:

Once again Brad, sorry for shooting my mouth off, in the most homerific way.  It happens.

By the way, was The Madison Club eligible for ranking this year?  I've toured it.  It's amazing, and sure to have a polarizing effect on golf architecture fans.

I was told once by a merchant in Bandon, that members of the Chamber of Commerce get some "deal" on play at Bandon.  Either free or significantly reduced rate.  It makes membership in the Chamber highly prized.  Don't know if that is still true.

I would assume that not enough raters saw the Madison Club as it was open in 2007 so should have been eligible.  Very polorizing to say the least and not just from a golf perspective but also from the experience.  If you want to drown in Trump-like luxury, the Madison is for you.

[Tim Pitner]

Back to the list . . .

I really like Bandon Trails, but to rate it above Ballyneal is just crazy and undermines the credibility of the entire list, IMHO.  

[Kalen Braley]

You can still spend a night at the resort and play 36 holes during peak season for less than one round at Pebble Beach

This is like saying Paris Hilton isn't a slut because Jenna Jameson is a bigger slut.

Guys:  I know plenty about Average Joe, even Golfing Average Joe.  He has ZERO desire to get on an expensive plane ride to play golf in the middle of nowhere, regardless of the cost of play and accomodations.  

Even if he can get through Gating Item #1 (the wife saying "you want to do WHAT??[/i]), Gating Item #2 is plane fare.  I just searched for a flight on cheapest weekend of the year -- the first week of December -- between Thanksgiving rush and Christmas rush -- from Chicago to North Bend.  $550.  And it's a 7 1/2 hour flight.  

Average Joe does not take 7 1/2 hour flights for $550 to play golf and piss off the wife even for the "off season" rates.  Golfing Average Joe is a little more tempted (it might be on his "pipe dream" list, along with a three-way with Nicole Kidman and Salma Hayek), but frankly he's more worried about finding an extra $500 for Christmas presents at that time of year, or paying off the Christmas credit card debt in Jan-Feb.  

Average Joe does not go to Bandon.  Neither does Golfing Average Joe.  That's just a fact.  

Amen,

Brother Shivas hath spoken the truth.  

[John_Conley]

One last example before I step away:

Is a $1 million dollar house in carmel, CA "affordable" because most of the other houses in the area cost more than that?  $1 Mill is still $1 Mill and the vast majority of people could never afford it.

Absolutely.

A vast majority of people have no desire to live in Carmel.  When you compare $1,000,000 to other houses in the area it is very affordable.

When you compare Bandon to other world-class American resorts it is downright cheap.  Pinehurst, Kohler, Monterey.

Where I have a problem following your logic is that you take Bandon and compare it to a scale with municipal courses on it.  No, Pac Dunes doesn't set you back 40 bucks.  It costs more than that to take a caddy.

[John_Conley]

This is like saying Paris Hilton isn't a slut because Jenna Jameson is a bigger slut.

Amen,

Brother Shivas hath spoken the truth.  

Kalen:

I think you're unfairly harsh on Jenna.  Her popularity has exploded despite retreating from actually having sex with men in adult films.  Can't we just say their both skanks and leave it at that?

Can't help but see how money again is involved, just like with green fees.  Hilton is an heiress that has so much money she can do whatever she wants.  Jenna grew up an 'Average Jane' and achieved stardom through sex, so at least she got something in return for her sluttiness.

Better question... have they been to Bandon?  If not it sort of proves the theory that there are a lot of people that don't aspire to go there.

[John Kirk]

The Madison Club is a new Discovery Land development in La Quinta, CA, which features a Tom Fazio golf course.  It is built down in the valley, and millions of cubic yards of sand and dirt were moved to transform the course into a rolling terrain with something like 25-40 feet of elevation change.  If I'm not mistaken, a barranca, or large trench, perhaps 20-25 feet deep, was built through the property, and the excess dirt was used to shape the course.

The course has large features.  Big fairways, big greens, big bunkers, and lots of water hazards.  The bunkering is ornate, with carefully trimmed edges.  I don't remember a single blind shot.  The course is not quite designed to be walkable, due to two, maybe three long walks and a few medium length walks from green to tee, which will prevent most from doing so.

The service level is already legendary, with stories of over the top service already filtering through the community there.

I didn't play the course, and I tend to like courses on more interesting land, but there is much to admire here.  The fairways are really wide, allowing some decision making on approach angles.  I did not see any par 4s I felt were driveable, but I don't hit it that far.

Some of the privacy berms were covered with flowers.  I'd say I saw a hundred thousand annual flowering plants out there, and I don't think I'm exaggerating.  Maybe only fifty thousand.

So the Madison Club is a modern day Shadow Creek type effort, with all the bells and whistles attached.  It's really wild, and not really my type of course, but I'm sure it's a gas to play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Price and rankings do not mix for many, many, many reasons.  I can't tell you how proud I am of the lack of architectural discussion on this thread.  Point proven once again.

[Craig Sweet]

Ballyneal vs Bandon Trails?

Is Ballyneal accessible? Can I show up and play?  If not the rating, and the discussion, is meaningless.

[Garland Bayley]

...
A vast majority of people have no desire to live in Carmel.
...

How much more out of touch can you be?