Golf Week Best New Courses-let the fur fly

[Daryl David]

Mr. Klein has released the best new courses for 2005-2007. Here is the top 10.

   
1. Bandon Trails (Bandon, Ore.)   Resort
2. Chambers Bay GC (University Place, Wash.)   DF, municipal
3. Sebonack GC (Southampton, N.Y.)   Private
4. Ballyneal (Holyoke, Colo.)   Private
5. Bright’s Creek GC (Mill Spring, N.C.)   Private, RE
6. Bayonne GC (Bayonne, N.J.)   Private
7. Concession GC (Sarasota, Fla.)   Private, RE
8. Colorado GC (Parker, Colo.)   Private, RE
9. Pronghorn – Fazio (Bend, Ore.)   Private, RE
10. Boston GC (Hingham, Mass.)   Private

Let the games begin!  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

A very impressive list regardless of the numerical order.

[Garland Bayley]

Hooray for the PNW.

[Mike_Cirba]

I haven't played any of the others unfortunately, but if there are nine golf courses built in the past two years better than Boston Golf Club I'd be very pleasantly surprised.

[Andy Troeger]

Mike,
I would have said the same thing for Colorado GC at #8.

Just to be a contrarian, anybody else think its interesting that the system allows a course to be best new two years in a row?

[John Kavanaugh]

Sebonack has a new book for sale...Bandon Resort is building a new course...anyone see a trend here?  Not that there is anything wrong with making a buck.  Now I get it...This must be the Digest list because Erin Hills is missing.

I have only played Ballyneal and Bandon Trails...Ballyneal is way much better from the greens to the free soap.

[David_Tepper]

Question - What does the RE stand for after courses #5, #7, #8 & #9?

[Walt_Cutshall]

I haven't played any of the others unfortunately, but if there are nine golf courses built in the past two years better than Boston Golf Club I'd be very pleasantly surprised.

I've only played Boston Golf Club and Bandon Trails. BGC is 20 times the golf course that BT is.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Apparently 'RE' stands for Real Estate.

Here is the URL

http://www.golfweek.com/story/bestnewcourses_feature_101507


A pretty impressive showing for my former home state with 3 courses on the list: Chambers Bay, Tumble Creek and the Home Course.

And 1 from my current home state of confusion... I mean Oklahoma: The Territory.

Sadly I have not played any of the courses on the list.  

[Matt_Cohn]

...Bright's Creek?



Stands out for not having multiple threads about it on this site.

[John Kirk]

With respect to Ballyneal, it's great to be #4 on this list, but I think it's a better course than either Sebonack or Chambers Bay.  Bandon Trails, too.

With respect to Stone Eagle, I'm disappointed it's #28.  I'd be awfully surprised if I liked Liberty National better.  Frankly, with Stone Eagle I don't care, because it is a spectacularly beautiful place.  Emotional ownership has set in; I just love the place.

Time to start picking on Brad.  How many times are you going to change the criteria for best modern courses?  Now it's three years of courses.  Next year are we going to have best new courses, 2005-2008, so you can keep Bandon Trails on top of the list?

How much does your own vote count here?  I know you gave Bandon Trails a 9.5-10 when you reviewed it.  I know you wrote a book on Sebonack.  I know you gave Chambers Bay a very high rating last year, something like 8.5-9.  Chambers Bay is pretty darn good.  I just wish you liked Ballyneal the way you like these other places.

Last question.  Will you recalculate rankings when a second wave of votes come in?  Ballyneal has recently improved green speeds and overall conditioning.  Thanks.

[Jed Peters]

My very own home course--site/location of our November get together--is number 17.

I'm curious to see if our members from this site think that is justified or not.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have played five of the courses and can see four of them in the top ten.. The course that surprises me is Brights Creek.  It was in a beautiful location and had some very good holes but had more average holes than good holes.  It was ok Fazio but nothing special.  Why is it getting such good marks?  Am I missing something?  

[John Kavanaugh]

I have played five of the courses and can see four of them in the top ten.. The course that surprises me is Brights Creek.  It was in a beautiful location and had some very good holes but had more average holes than good holes.  It was ok Fazio but nothing special.  Why is it getting such good marks?  Am I missing something?  

New Fazio's are always overrated by Golfweek.  I think they like the conditioning.  Does anyone open a course better than Fazio?

[Andy Troeger]

Looking through the entire list the five courses I've played seem about right in relation to each other.

Colorado GC in the top ten.

We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and Lakota Canyon in the next ten. Those two are very close in my mind despite being very different styles of courses on very different properties.

A little lower down but still very good are Pradera and Canyata. That one could go either way for me as well.

[Steve Lapper]

With respect to Ballyneal, it's great to be #4 on this list, but I think it's a better course than either Sebonack or Chambers Bay.  Bandon Trails, too.

With respect to Stone Eagle, I'm disappointed it's #28.  I'd be awfully surprised if I liked Liberty National better.  Frankly, with Stone Eagle I don't care, because it is a spectacularly beautiful place.  Emotional ownership has set in; I just love the place.

Time to start picking on Brad.  How many times are you going to change the criteria for best modern courses?  Now it's three years of courses.  Next year are we going to have best new courses, 2005-2008, so you can keep Bandon Trails on top of the list?

How much does your own vote count here?  I know you gave Bandon Trails a 9.5-10 when you reviewed it.  I know you wrote a book on Sebonack.  I know you gave Chambers Bay a very high rating last year, something like 8.5-9.  Chambers Bay is pretty darn good.  I just wish you liked Ballyneal the way you like these other places.

Last question.  Will you recalculate rankings when a second wave of votes come in?  Ballyneal has recently improved green speeds and overall conditioning.  Thanks.

John:

   Reading your discourse suggests to me (any others here?) that you ought to become a GW rater yourself. I'm not a rater and not saying I even disagree with with ANY of the comparisons you cite yet, could you say that you would rate all courses with an objective and dispassionate eye? Could you analyze or quantitatively rank, by any set metrics, every course (including those that you belong to?)?

 Before you call Brad on the carpet for self-interest, can you say the  same of your defense of certain places that present a potential conflict of interest as well? Although I don't know the formulas or specifics, I believe many of the rankings come from geographical exposure and the # of raters who pass through each venue They also factor in aesthetics and other ingredients that don't always equal out after course architecture features are weighed. Maybe it's just best to go and do it yourself?

You certainly have the chops to be a solid rater!

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have played five of the courses and can see four of them in the top ten.. The course that surprises me is Brights Creek.  It was in a beautiful location and had some very good holes but had more average holes than good holes.  It was ok Fazio but nothing special.  Why is it getting such good marks?  Am I missing something?  

New Fazio's are always overrated by Golfweek.  I think they like the conditioning.  Does anyone open a course better than Fazio?

John, I have played any courses that Nicklaus has designed that were not immaculate off the starting gate.

[Jason Blasberg]

A silly list, actually.

[RJ_Daley]

I'm impressed by so many courses names starting with B or C.  

[Daryl David]

Apparently 'RE' stands for Real Estate.

Here is the URL

http://www.golfweek.com/story/bestnewcourses_feature_101507

If that is the case, they missed it on Tumble Creek.  Home ownership is required for membership.  I would say that would make it RE.

[John Kirk]

John:

   Reading your discourse suggests to me (any others here?) that you ought to become a GW rater yourself. I'm not a rater and not saying I even disagree with with ANY of the comparisons you cite yet, could you say that you would rate all courses with an objective and dispassionate eye? Could you analyze or quantitatively rank, by any set metrics, every course (including those that you belong to?)?

 Before you call Brad on the carpet for self-interest, can you say the  same of your defense of certain places that present a potential conflict of interest as well? Although I don't know the formulas or specifics, I believe many of the rankings come from geographical exposure and the # of raters who pass through each venue They also factor in aesthetics and other ingredients that don't always equal out after course architecture features are weighed. Maybe it's just best to go and do it yourself?

You certainly have the chops to be a solid rater!

Steve,

Thanks for the nice thoughts...

I definitely have emotional attachments to both Ballyneal and Stone Eagle, and cannot evaluate them dispassionately.  I've played them too often, for one thing.

Rating golf courses is almost completely subjective.  I don't think I would be any better or worse than anybody else.  Granted there are some general criteria, but each person has their own definition of what is fun, or pretty, or challenging, and how much each is worth.

With respect to this year's list, it just seems Brad's personal favorites are 1, 2, and 3, and the #1 course has been there for three years, hasn't it?  It's probably just a coincidence, and also show that Brad's evaluation is consistent with the overall perception.

I forgot to add how much I enjoy the ratings, and how much I appreciate Brad's hard work to make it happen.  He works his ass off compiling these ratings.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am surprised to see that Liberty National (19) and Dismal River (42) were not ranked higher.  Liberty National is not my favorite hat but it is better than 19.  I really liked Dismal River as I found it this August in spite of some of the weaknesses I mentioned on the thread.  42 seems a tad low.

[Kirk Gill]

An impressive top ten. Quite a number of these courses would be unknown to me if not for this site. Extensive picture essays here have illuminated Boston and Pronghorn and others. I love the fact that two of them (and the top two, for what that's worth) are courses I can play, if I can get myself there. I also love that two of them are in my home state, and that I can see one of them from my back porch.

How cool is that?

And Walt, Boston is 20 times the course that BT is? Could that be just a wee bit of hyperbole?  

[Craig Sweet]

Top 10 new courses? So what?  Eight of them the average Joe can't play, and the two that he can will set him back two or three days pay.....they may as well not exist.

[Brian Cenci]

I think Greywalls is a little too far down on the list.  Not that the courses above it aren't as good but to me there's too big a disparidy in the list from a course like Greywalls to Bandon Trails, when in my book Bandon Trails is maybe only slightly better.  Maybe it just speaks to the overall quality of the courses in the top 25.