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Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2007, 11:12:42 AM »
Several other courses of Mr. Dyes with slope ratings over 140 and many over 145 include:

The Honors Course-75.7, 151 slope
Crooked Stick-77.3, 146 slope
Harbor Town-75.1, 146 slope
Long Cove-74.8, 142 slope
Barefoot Resort-75.3, 149 slope
Bulle Rock-76.4, 147 slope
Pete Dye GC-76.9, 147 slope
Van Kampen-75.9, 143 slope
Firethorn-73.8, 149 slope
Colleton River-Dye-74.7, 145 slope

As for Norman designed courses, Ive played 2-TPC Sugerloaf and Oldfield-and didnt think that either one was difficult. Is his newer courses that much harder?

Tony Nysse
Sr Asst Supt
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 03:57:51 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2007, 11:38:57 AM »
another vote for Mr. Dye
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Gib_Papazian

Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2007, 12:45:37 PM »
This is a VERY individual question insofar as responses are going to be based on how they go about navigating their way around a golf course.

That is because there are continuing themes woven into the work of Nicklaus, Rees Jones, Dye, Tom Doak and certainly C&C.

The individual "skill set" required to play their designs is very different for each of these men - and those similarities from course to course are a common thread throughout their body of work.

A Monet always looks like a Monet, just as it only takes a single note from his guitar to identify David Gilmour.

Some skill sets require purely physical ability and a well functioning left-brain approach to golf and life (read: Nicklaus), while others depend on right-brain visualization and "outside-the-box" creativity (read: Doak).

I've friends who waltz around Nicklaus courses, barely breaking a sweat, who love every hole. Now, take this same gunner to Pacific Dunes with blind shots and bunkers in the middle of the fairway and they hate it.

PGA West from appropriate tees is not that hard of a golf course. I have played it plenty of times. It gets that reputation from dullards and fools who play from the Black Tees and cannot figure out why they need a tourniquet for their necks by 3rd hole.

Pete Dye depends on psychological terror, but when you come down to it, if you can block out the monster and swing the golf club, the shot is never terribly difficult.

A Nicklaus course nearly always (Mayacama excluded) requires a shot I do not have in the bag. I never have and never will. Thus, it is like getting horsewhipped 18 times in a row by a sadistic prison guard.

The problem with Nicklaus is too often there is no place to miss - to cheat it a bit over there for a safe par. No options, no choices, just pound pound pound hole after hole after holes, course after course after course. I've played 25 or 30 of them - don't try and argue with me.

Rees . . . .  no point in going there. Some people like Lake Merced. We can agree to disagree.

"Hard" is only in context of what shots you have in your bag. Ran's concept of "inspiration," that force of aesthetic and strategic appreciation that makes your heart sing with joy - and elevates your game to meet challenges is another subject altogether.

There is nothing harder for me to do than keep my concentration while being subjected to a repetitious obstacle course - yet take those same obstacles and present them to me in a strategic context, then they do not seem so insurmountable.

If I hate the architecture, the course is too hard, even when it is not.






   
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 12:47:57 PM by Gib Papazian »

Jeff_Stettner

Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2007, 12:50:00 PM »
Based on a sample size of one, I would go with Casey O'Callaghan (although this may not be a reflection of the architect but rather a reflection of the land). Which brings me to my question... in guaging difficulty, how much actual influence does the architect have? On a site like Shadow Creek I think I have my answer. But what about in the context of a course like The Ranch?

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2007, 08:37:43 PM »
Dye
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2007, 08:53:23 PM »
I would choose Pete Dye, I especially love his tough but interesting work at   Oak Tree  !!



ps...    Im curious: are the courses designed   by  Perry  and  P.B.    as difficult as their dad's work

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2007, 09:15:50 PM »
Mark,  
  Without a doubt PB has made dad proud! PB is responsible for Moorland@ Legends Resort, PB Dye GC and Loblobby Pines.

Tony Nysse
Sr Asst Supt
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mike_Cirba

Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2007, 09:32:29 PM »
I'd vote for Norman and Dye 1 and 2.

After that it's a toss-up.  Most of the younger generation of architects is building courses that are hard, in one way or another.

1) Norman - Is the guy really THAT dour and humorless??  

2) Dye - But, he gives you a fighting chance.   Norman is just a pr*ck.

3) RTJ Jr. - He views himself as battling technology in the only way that works.   Making the tee shot tough as nails.   Instead of defending par at the green, he makes you struggle to get there.

In comparison to those three, most of Nicklaus's more recent courses are a breeze.

Rees still builds difficult golf courses, but does it simply with length and repeated forced carries.   I can't imagine that's tough for anyone talented...only the rest of us hacks.

Arthur Hills has built some tough courses, but mostly because they are either the wrong course for the wrong site, or because the placement of the bunkering is indecipherable to the normal human mind.

And...although he's an easy target, I will give Tom Fazio this much.   He's almost always at his best when he tries to build a course with difficulty as the primary consideration.   Give me Trump National over a thousand Atunyotes.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 09:36:16 PM by MikeCirba »

Peter Pallotta

Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2007, 09:38:17 PM »
Is "on whose courses would the bogie golfer most struggle to break 100?" the same question?

Is "on whose courses would the bogie golfer have the best chance of breaking 90?" the very opposite question?

Those came out more smart-assy than I intended, but I hope you know what I'm trying to ask

Peter
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 09:39:11 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2007, 09:48:21 PM »
Peter,

You're not an apologetic smart ass, are you?... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2007, 09:58:05 PM »
I have only played a few Von Hagge(sp?) but they were brutal.

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2007, 11:15:20 PM »
The EPA and developers that use the best land for homes.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Trey Kemp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2007, 11:52:47 AM »
I would vote for Greg Norman and then Pete Dye
twitter.com/TreyKempGCA

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who Designs the Toughest Courses?
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2007, 12:05:30 PM »
Pete Dye then RTJ then Art Hills.

Gib is correct when he says above "Pete Dye depends on psychological terror, but when you come down to it, if you can block out the monster and swing the golf club, the shot is never terribly difficult." However, that is easier said than done!

The RTJ courses that I've played are long, tough slogs but I always liked the "hard par easy bogey" challenge.

I've found Art Hills courses are difficult in the worst way--penal and head scratching, not much fun there.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

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