[Joe Hancock]

Tom,

I also remember when you gave me a tour of Merion and we saw the contour to the right side of the green at the quarry hole, and thought of the fun possibilities that shot might offer.

Joe

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

As a general rule, these things don't bother me, and just make the game more interesting.  The only time something like this bothered me was when I was playing a shortish hole this last summer.

It was playing downwind, perhaps 10-15 MPH and I had a sand wedge in for my 2nd shot.  I hit a nice high shot and landed the approach 20 feet short of the green, as I was trying to do. The ball proceeded to roll onto the green and then over the green.  I honestly don't know what I could have done differently there as a club with a lower trajectory would have just been worse.

Perhaps I could have putted from 110 yards away..  

[herrstein]

I think the best golf is designed, and played, without the word "should" in the vocabulary.

[herrstein]

Mike,

As a general rule, these things don't bother me, and just make the game more interesting.  The only time something like this bothered me was when I was playing a shortish hole this last summer.

It was playing downwind, perhaps 10-15 MPH and I had a sand wedge in for my 2nd shot.  I hit a nice high shot and landed the approach 20 feet short of the green, as I was trying to do. The ball proceeded to roll onto the green and then over the green.  I honestly don't know what I could have done differently there as a club with a lower trajectory would have just been worse.

Perhaps I could have putted from 110 yards away..  

On my first round of my first trip to Scotland, once we made the ridge at Gullane #2, I hit this precise approach on the first non-uphill hole, #3, I think. I hit my new (at the time) 60 degree wedge with u-grooves.
I was shocked when it bounced over the green so far!
I learned to play the proper shot on that trip, even getting a round of applause from the gallery at #16 Old Course for a 65 yard chip with a 6 iron to 3 feet.
Good thing, too, since now Lookout Mountain plays like that often.

[Mike_Cirba]

What in the world are you talking about?

Sully,

C'mon man...get with the program...everyone else understood my somewhat obtuse, grammatically-strained question right from the get go!  

I think we need to discuss this over a bottle of red...I'll have you agreeing with me here without even thinking about it!  

[Tommy Williamsen]

I love to hit a shot that needs to take the slope of the fairway and/or green into consideration.  But not on every shot.  Some shots into the green should be able to be fired at the pin. That also takes some skill.  For instance, a pin tucked over a bunker or water is  exciting when the player a tempt the hazard and fire directly at the pin. Without that option the game is too one dimensional.  

[BVince]

I think it all depends on what loft of club you are hitting.  If you are hitting a lofted club where you expect it to stop immediately after contact with the ground, then you should be able to fire right at the pin.  Conversely, if you are hitting a 3 iron into the green, maybe you will have to use to contours to work the ball close to the pin.

If the answer is a simple "no", then Harvey Penick's "take dead aim" quote wouldn't make much sense.  

[Andrew Summerell]

I think the question should be, "Should the architect make it look like you are able to fire approach shots directly at any pin?"

This would require multiple options be offered.

There are a lot of golfers out there that just fire at the pin every time. Well, I believe they should be made to think that they can, even if it's the worst option in the world.

A lot of modern architecture (& modern maintenance practices) doesn't encourage the golfer the think.

[Mike_Clayton]

Andrew,

Or, should the question be 'Should you be able to get at any pin/hole location?

We have done greens where you really should not fire at the pin - certainly not without great risk - but you can get to the pin with the right shaped shot that uses the contours to run the ball down to the flag.

The 13th green at Barnbougle is an extreme example and David Graham hit an uncredible draw shot that caught the contours perfectly in an early Dunhill Cup to the 17th at St Andrews and finished a couple of feet from the hole.
7 west at Royal Melbourne is a good example of a green where a left to right bouncing shot will work its way to the right flag - which you should rarely hit at.Same with 4 East and a running draw.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Clayton,

Yes...completely agreed.   Your rephrasing of the question is exactly what I was trying to ask.

[Andrew Summerell]

David Graham hit an uncredible draw shot that caught the contours perfectly in an early Dunhill Cup to the 17th at St Andrews and finished a couple of feet from the hole.

I remember that shot. The other 2 matches had gone each way & Graham's match was even. Because of that shot, there was a 2 shot swing, if I remember correctly, which allowed him to win the match & the cup for Australia.

Basically, that shot won the cup. One of the greatest shots I have ever seen.

[Mike_Clayton]

Andrew,

Obviously it was an incredible draw shot - as opposed to an uncredible .....

It was also the first and last time you saw Greg Norman,David Graham and Graham Marsh with their arms around each other.
And if it wasn't Marshy it was Rodger Davis.

[Richard Boult]

MP, I don't see how you can say that the following 2 questions are the same.

"Should you be able to fire approach shots directly at any pin/hole location and expect that the ball will come to a stop within a 3-10 foot radius of the hole upon landing, given reasonably firm green conditions?"

and...

"Should you be able to get at any pin/hole location?"

The 1st seems to dictate that the shot is made directly at the pin (target golf).  The 2nd assumes a ground game can exist, allowing approaches that land well off the green and perhaps rolling good distances left or right and forward or backwards before coming to rest.

In either case, I like Doug Stein's reply... "the best golf is designed, and played, without the word "should" in the vocabulary."

At my home course, Monarch Dunes, there's a couple holes where simply getting the ball on the green is a great accomplishment. Landing the approach on the green is a sure way to fail to do so.

[Doug Siebert]

Tom:

You're right about 17 behind the bunker at TOC. I have played there but never with the pin dead behind the bunker (I've only played there twice). And for me if the pin was there I'm not sure how much I would enjoy it. Are their many others like that one though?

It was there last time I played there back in 2001, and I LOVED it.  I drove into the wispy left rough and had I believe 173 yards remaining, with a small left to right breeze that wasn't helping or hurting, on a cool but not cold day, pretty benign conditions for TOC.  I knew the odds that I could pull the shot off were nearly zero, but I had to try it.  My caddie was telling me to aim about 20 yards right of the bunker, I let him talk but wasn't listening, I already knew where I was going, directly at that pin in its most evil back left location, straight over the center of the Road Bunker!  I'd played the hole once before and hadn't been in the bunker or on the road, I was ready to enjoy either or both of those this time if I wasn't destined for the sublime achievement of hitting directly over the Road Bunker and holding the green next to the pin.

I took a 7 iron because that's the club I needed to carry to just short of the pin if I hit the ball square, knowing full well that a mishit would probably drop me in the Road Bunker, because there was no way I'd hold the green with anything less than a well struck shot.  I did hit it well, very high, and right where I aimed.  I simply could not have landed it in a more perfect place, just over the bunker but on the flatter part of the green, rather than the downslope side of the bunker where it would have immediately shot forward.  It took a couple bounces on the green and then started rolling and for a John Kirkian moment it appeared I had succeeded, but the ball just kept rolling and fell off the back of the green and ended up on the blacktop, only 20 feet from the hole.  Again my caddie annoyingly was encouraging me to take the safe way by putting off the road away from the hole down towards the front of the green where I had more margin for error.  He just didn't get why I was there.  I chipped a 4 iron off the road into the bank, the ball popped in the air and rolled up a foot from the hole for a tap in par, to the scattered applause of the 15 or 20 odd people hanging around in one the best places in the world to watch great and terrible golf shots.

Do I care that I really couldn't fire my approach shot at that hole?  Hell no, that didn't bother me a bit.  And it wouldn't bother me a bit on a no name crappy muni either (actually, I see those kind of unattainable pin positions on no name munis a lot more often than at expensive CCFADs, those guys always way overwater their greens)  Not only does it not bother me if I can't get close to a hole, it doesn't really bother me if I can't even keep the ball on the green.  If it were impossible to keep the ball on the green from anywhere that might be a bit extreme, but if it is just because on this day you've got a following wind and its not possible with a following wind, or you hit your drive in the wrong place and have the wrong angle, well, that's not the fault of the firm green or the architect now is it?

[Brock Peyer]

I don't think that you should be able to hit at any pin.  Unfortunately, for the guys on TV, I do think that the "sucker" pin of the past has disappeared due to everyone hitting 150 yd wedges, perimeter weighted clubs incredible balls and course conditioning.  What is the quote that you hear about 11 at Augusta during the Masters....Hogan never aimed for the green if the pin was left, not any more.  That part of strategy has seemed to disappear in this age b/c you are hitting less club, bunkers are easy and we all have lob wedges.  I am only a 6 but I will aim at nearly any pin with any club, probably shouldn't but I do.

I think no.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()