Same Distance/Different Par

[Jason Topp]

I am not aware of a single hole that is around 475 yards and listed as a par 5 from the middle tees and a par 4 from the back tees.  It seems like a reasonable approach to me and a way to avoid lengthening some courses squeezed for space.

That type of approach happens on many courses between the middle and front tees.

If handicapping somehow prevents this, I think the regulation should change.

I do recall some holes in Scotland that took the opposite approach - back tees were 475 par 5 and middle tees were 465 par four.  I assume that is because of strict application of distance limitations for different pars.  In the US, those distance limits have been ignored for some time.  

[JESII]

Jason,

I do not have a specific example, but I will suggest one non-regulatory reason for not lowering par on a 475 holes from 5 to 4...the magic number 70!

I think this is the next obstacle owners will have to get comfortable with if they are going to continue their passionate pursuit of defending par against the mass of 13.6 handicappers coming through the gates...




In a different direction, but one I thought your thread title might lead to prior to reading...we have back to back holes at my course that run directly opposite each other...the 14th is 475 from the tips and pretty flat, and 15 is 575 from the tips and also pretty flat. Under our normal very firm conditions and with a fresh breeze, the 15th plays about the same yardage as the 14th, and is probably an easier 4...

[Tom_Doak]

Jason:

I've seen that (par 5 from the white tees, 4 from the blacks) any number of times.  The one that comes to mind right away is Cuscowilla, which I believe has two such holes -- the ninth hole is one of them.

It's a reasonable way of doing things, but my impression is that most golfers react negatively to it.

I remarked recently here that I did build two consecutive holes at The Legends early in my career which were exactly the same length -- 470 yards -- with the first being called a par 4 and the second a par 5.  I figured combined, they're a 9 for most people.

[Mike McGuire]

The ninth at West Bend CC (Langford) in Wisconsin has this arrangement. From the blue its 475 par 5 and from the black its 440 par four.

Almost everyone wants to change it. Make it a par four from both. Simply switch the plates and order some new scorecards.

The people that don't want to switch it think its an easier hole 35 yards  longer?  A good example on how the word par can deceive.

What if you were playing Tiger in a match and the game was he played the back tees while you played the one up tees. You get to the ninth hole and he gets to tee off ahead of you?

[Jason Topp]

The ninth at West Bend CC (Langford) in Wisconsin has this arrangement. From the blue its 475 par 5 and from the black its 440 par four.

Almost everyone wants to change it. Make it a par four from both. Simply switch the plates and order some new scorecards.

The people that don't want to switch it think its an easier hole 35 yards  longer?  A good example on how the word par can deceive.

What if you were playing Tiger in a match and the game was he played the back tees while you played the one up tees. You get to the ninth hole and he gets to tee off ahead of you?

Mike:

I also do not like the idea of the back tees being farther forward than the middle tees.  That is why I suggested 475 for all.  How would people react to that at West Bend?

[Brad Swanson]

Jason,
   I was told that the 18th at Greywalls may have the back tees play to a par 4 and the up tees play to a par 5, the next time it is rerated.  It seems somewhat silly to me (especially considering that the hole handicaps should need to be reworked for the back tees vs the others).  Also, the course is tough enough from the tips without finishing on a 533 yd par 4 and losing one of only 3 par 5s on the course.

Mike,
   With the slope of the 9th at West Bend, a good drive from either set of tees will wind up at the bottom of the turbo boost, making the extra length of the back tee less of an issue, will it not?  I really like this hole as a par 4.

Cheers,
Brad

[Jason Topp]

Jason, It seems somewhat silly to me (especially considering that the hole handicaps should need to be reworked for the back tees vs the others).  

Cheers,
Brad

Why would the hole handicaps need to be rerated?  I understand that the handicap number is supposed to reflect not the difficulty of the hole but the relative advantage a low handicapper would have against a high handicapper.  That advantage is independent of the par label for the hole.

[Brad Swanson]

Jason, It seems somewhat silly to me (especially considering that the hole handicaps should need to be reworked for the back tees vs the others).  

Cheers,
Brad

Why would the hole handicaps need to be rerated?  I understand that the handicap number is supposed to reflect not the difficulty of the hole but the relative advantage a low handicapper would have against a high handicapper.  That advantage is independent of the par label for the hole.

Correct you are, Jason.  My mistake (although in reality I think there's more to it than that).

Cheers,
Brad

[Bill_McBride]

Some courses I've played in the UK have the yellow (visitor) tee at 470 par 4 and the white (medal tee) at 485 par 5!  North Berwick West #8 is a good example.  So the yellow tees may be par 70 and much more difficult, at least on those holes, than the medal tees at par 72.

[Mike McGuire]

Jason-

Everyone playing from 475 would be a better option than having the hole play shorter/easier from the "back" tee. But it is a fantastic 2 shot hole and a pussycat 3 shotter.

As Brad has mentioned you can get a turbo boost with a very well struck drive (175 - 190 to green). This benefits the player playing it shorter even more.

The green is huge and will accept a long approach.

[Jason Topp]

I think Interlachen changed No. 11 from a 5 to a 4 for all.  I also think the change was unpopular even though it changed the course from a 73 to a 72.  

I think of the hole as pretty manageable and interesting as a 5 but a real killer as a 4.  Interesting how big of an impact a par label has on one's experience with a golf hole.  

[Andrew Summerell]

Championship & Medal days at Newcastle GC play as a par 70, with normal comps played at a par 72. The two holes that change are the 4th (460y) & the 13th (480y).

With a huge plateau to climb at the end of the 4th & the fairway flanking bunkers that trail down the fairway from the 13th green, both holes play quite well as either par 4 or 5.

Of course, championship & medal days are played as stroke, so the par doesn't really matter.