[Randy Thompson]

Maybe this has been discussed before but time after time I read in different threads how fast greens lead to better scoring ect. In my opinion faster greens developed throughout the last thirty years as a result of the clubs desires to produce TRUER putting surfaces. The majority of the clubs had some form of bentgrass, predominately, Penncross and the characteristic of this grass is that it produces a lot of lateral growth which causes the ball to roll untrue as it slows. In the last ten years the varieties of new bentgrasses on the market have an upright growth that produces truer surfaces even at lower speeds. I think it’s much more important that the ball rolls true and all greens are consistent throughout the golfing experience in how they receive, firmness and consistent speed. I personally prefer greens rolling 9 on the stempmeter with little or no grain, that ensures trueness, than a green rolling 12 that has grain and as a result when the ball starts to slow there are unexpected turns. If I am missing something here, I welcome your comments.

[Adam Clayman]

Randy, Don't be discouraged by the lack of responses. You're sort of preaching to the choir. Although, there is an under current of posters who are the epitome of the worst offendors, as it relates to many of the principles held dearly by those who have the sport in mind, versus those who hold their score up as the critical component of the game.

Plus, I think it takes a keen eye to see the grain on greens rolling at 12.


 

[Roger Tufts]

Well, from an architecture standpoint, green slope and green speed are directly related... how sloped a green CAN BE while being constructed has to do with environment and the length of the grass. I believe this was talked about a few weeks ago in a thread talking about the green speed and wind factor at Pine Valley.

As far as the true factor, i would make the same preference as you. I'd be interested to see other people make judgments about green speed vs. trueness. I would obviously prefer trueness, but in my experience, trueness has almost always been paired with 10-12 stemp speeds. Exceptions coming on courses like RCD, Portrush, Portmarnock, Ballybunion.

All the private courses in the home area are all very, very fast, and very true, though trueness can also be contributed to the amount of play... Courses such as Myopia are a WONDERFUL putting test, because in prime season, the course is rolling at a 12, firm, and very, very true.

[Randy Thompson]

Adam,
 I agree with you, there probably won't be much grain at a stemp of 12 but with the new grasses if you can get the same trueness at 9.5 is there any reason to increase that speed other than establishing fear in the less confident putters?

[BVince]

I know that some architects would prefer to have slower green speeds so they could create more contours in the greens.  The higher the green speed, the less interesting the architect can design the putting surfaces.

I personally prefer a good mix.  I would like to see interesting greens that have a good rollout.  

[Adam Clayman]

Randy, The meat of the matter is, as Roger touches on, that interesting slopes cannot be utilized in a world with 12+ Stimps. The resultant flattish (easier) greens play into the hands of those who want their golf predictable. A personal observation is that I 'd rather be fooled by not reading the sun and grain, then, by some shaper's subtle (invisible) handiwork.

Also, Just so you know, I'm a fan of Poa Annua greens because they require me to take control over my ball. Versus the Brocolli like grain of that weed.

[Marty Bonnar]

Randy,
it appears to be a rather sad fact of modern life that the bigger the number, the more impressed the average numpty will be. Thus, the headlong race towards being more 'impressive'.

Stimps, like Stroke Indices (whoops, meant USGA Slope Ratings), Cubic capacity, Yardage, Vital Statistic(!), HDTV resolutions, etc, etc appear to be 'the bigger the better'.

I blame celebrity culture. But then again, I blame celebrity culture for everything.

Ignore the eedjits. Numbers mean nothing. Fun is all.

That's my mantra anyway...

FBD.

[Randy Thompson]

Adam,
 The interesting slopes can still be utilized but the number of fair pin positions diminishes. Its a risky though I agree, because I have no say where that pin is going to be positioned in the future, what will be the direction and velocity of wind on any given day. Many times we design incorrectly assuming that these factors will be taken into consideration by the person choosing a particular pin location. The superintendent is improperly pressured in my opinion to roll or shave the surfaces and do what ever it takes to get to high velocities on the stimp. Then the wind picks up and everybodies rolling ten feet by and then the general consensus becomes, Damn Architect put to much movement in the greens. Asi es la vida!

[Brent Hutto]

Like most things in life, green speeds are a tradeoff. The upside is that on fast greens a good putter can make more putts and the difference between better putters and poorer putters is magnified. Fast greens can also have effects further back toward the tee if they are firm as well as fast, placing a premium on being and staying "below" the hole however that might be defined on a given green.

The downside is that with faster green speeds you either have to limit slopes and/or eliminate pinnable areas.

Side effects are the expensive and risk of keeping the grass rolling fast and the fact that it is easier to make true/fast greens than true/slow ones, at least on Bermuda which is where all my experience lies. So there's a choice involved. I can tell you that 99 out of 100 USA golfers will gladly trade away interesting slopes and pinnable area if they can have fast greens. And no, they are not simply putting on a show of whose dick is bigger. It's just a great treat to putt on fast and true greens.

[Mike McGuire]

Randy -

Speaking for the upper midwest (Wisconsin). IMO green speeds are not that important as long as they are at least 9.5 to 10. Anything less and you are at a disadvantage with the best courses in your area.

it is depressing to go to a great course like Lawsonia and put on greens running at 8 or less. Putts that should be treacherous don't give you the fear they should, or the fun they could if you execute them properly.   Watching  everyone in the group come up short all day takes away a lot of the fun.

[Randy Thompson]

Brent,
 I agree that the only way to get good true greens on Bermuda is to cut them down or roll them and that means faster greens. But even with these practices your probably gonna be at 10 or under on the stimp. To achieve anything faster most likely will be done on a short term basis, ie club Championship or another two or maximum four day tournament. Trying to obtain speeds on Bermuda grass in an excess of 9.5 to 10, day in and day out most likely will result in super fast greens on an algae or mud base.

[Brent Hutto]

Randy,

That sounds about like my experience. A lot of clubs will post numbers is "10.0" and "10.5" daily on their course conditions board but judging from the couple times I've seen speeds actually measured they're exaggerating it upwards from something the 9's. Both my current club and my former club have presented greens that I suspect were well over 10 for special events and it's great fun but not worth killing the grass for.

Now winter time is another matter. My old club overseeded every winter with poa triv and at times they were just scary fast and almost grain-free. My current club does not overseed (hooray!) and the painted dormant greens are probably 10+ on a daily basis all winter long albeit with some bumps from ball marks and the occasional errant clump of meadowgrass.

As you can guess, I'm definitely in the "faster the better" 99% on this matter. If I lived up north where 11 or 12 is possible without destroying the grass I might be willing to cry uncle somewhere along those lines. But here in the land of various Bermuda hybrids it's pretty obvious that the best greens are also the fastest ones.

[S. Huffstutler]

Brent,
 I agree that the only way to get good true greens on Bermuda is to cut them down or roll them and that means faster greens. But even with these practices your probably gonna be at 10 or under on the stimp. To achieve anything faster most likely will be done on a short term basis, ie club Championship or another two or maximum four day tournament. Trying to obtain speeds on Bermuda grass in an excess of 9.5 to 10, day in and day out most likely will result in super fast greens on an algae or mud base.

Firstly, why do you need speeds over 10 or 10.5? Secondly, your remark about the inability to make bermuda fast without shaving it is not neccesarily true. My bermuda greens roll 10 - 11 daily and I don't shave them. It's a matter of using less fertilizer and less water. My greens aren't that pretty, but they are fully grassed and they putt very well. I don't think that making blanket statements about speed or anything else based on the grass cultivar is a smart move. I understand the preference for bentgrass, but since we can't grow it down here, it doesn't mean we don't provide quality putting surfaces for our members.

Regards,

Steve

[Kalen Braley]

There is a course I played often in the Spokane area that historically left their greens a little longer than most.  The first few years I played the course, most of the putts were pretty flat with not much break.  

Then they started mowing the greens shorter and that is when the fun began.  There was all kinds of internal contouring that now came into play and made for a funner experience on the course.  Perhaps this is the exception to the rule, but I was glad when they did this and I found myself playing the course more and more to explore all the undulations in the greens and experiment with them.

On a personal note, I prefer greens that roll true as the putter is the most lethal weapon in my bag.  When the greens are bumpy and unpredictable, my scores are usually higher.  But when they are rolling nice I can pour them in from all over the place.

[Mike_Young]

yes

[Don_Mahaffey]

Brent,
 I agree that the only way to get good true greens on Bermuda is to cut them down or roll them and that means faster greens. But even with these practices your probably gonna be at 10 or under on the stimp. To achieve anything faster most likely will be done on a short term basis, ie club Championship or another two or maximum four day tournament. Trying to obtain speeds on Bermuda grass in an excess of 9.5 to 10, day in and day out most likely will result in super fast greens on an algae or mud base.

Huh?
I guarantee you I can maintain bermuda greens that can average 10+, day in and day out, if that is what you want...and you'll find no mud or algae. I know because I've done it before with Mini Verde, and I've seen plenty of guys do it with Tif eagle and Champion as well.
You statement above would be correct...maybe...if it was made 15 years ago.

[JESII]

From a playing perspective, I would say YES!

But if you're stating that your ideal would be to have 10 - 10.5 day in and day out with the ability to grease them for the two or three target events of the year, that would be fine with me...I think this type of speed gives the architect free reign to build in whatever type of slopes he wants, and the only time the greens would ever approach overboard is during the couple of main events...daily play with difficult greens at 10.5 feet force the player to control the ball...which is the goal in all of this...isn't it?

[JESII]

I guess this follow up ties into Mike Young's "Strategy" thread...do these slopes you guys talk about have to display any logical reason for being there? Is a slope good just because it is a slope?

[Randy Thompson]

Don and Steve,
 Nobody is saying you don't provide quality putting surfaces for your members. This thread was started because I feel the Quality of a good putting green should be based on Trueness not speed. If you need to get to ten and above on the stimp to provide that trueness and you can still provide a healthy grass plant, great, that is what it's all about and that why the world has been seeking new cultivars and developers of these grasses have been delivering. I admitt that I have been in South America for more then sixteen years, so my experience with a lot of the new Bermuda cultivars is limited since they have not made it down here as of yet except tiff eagle and I found that very dense, great grass but if the density if not controlled results in slower velocities. But I apologize for the blanket statement, blanket statements in general should be avoided.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, Now that would depend on who designed it.    

[Jerry Kluger]

Randy:  Appropriate green speeds are essential to maxmize the design features of a hole.  A green with signifcant contours will pose enough of a challenge so that high green speeds are not necessary to make the golfer think about the consequences of a less than perfect shot.  Pin placement is also a significant factor when determining green speeds - green speeds need to be consistent so if it is decided that a pin will be near the top of a false front or a severe side slope, then green speeds have to be lower.  There is nothing worse than the green with the false front and a pin just at the crest and putts from below the hole come back to the player and putts from above roll off the green as well.

However, bringing down the speed of greens like they did at Baltimore CC really takes much of the strategy out of the holes.  (I don't care what BC said - they were too slow.)Those greens have signifcant contours but a player should not feel that he has a free run at birdie on every green that he is on in regulation.    

[Randy Thompson]

Jerry,
Couldn't agree more, especially in relation to the pin placements, I get it, you get it but unfortunately the person setting the pins doesn't always get it but its improving and more qualified persons are taking the decisions day in and day out where the pin will go and why but there are always exceptions.

[David Miller]

I played at Linville GC in the NC mountains last week and saw both the blessing and curse of fast greens.  The greens were flawless--the truest and fastest I've played--but they also rendered several of the pin positions downright ridiculous given the slope of the greens.  It was impossible at times to keep the ball on the green, or even within 25 yards of the green, if you got above the hole.  

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