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Kalen Braley

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Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« on: October 12, 2007, 02:30:40 PM »
On my recent trip to the Spokane area, I took the time to play Circling Raven in Worley, ID.  Since its been talked about here recently, and many have said they liked it, I thought I would do a hole by hole review of the course. It's a Gene Bates design and the finest of his works that I have played so far.

My general impression of the course is that it really has a "big" quality to it as Matt Ward has defined in talking about other courses.  Its laid out over a sprawling area of rolling hills, wetlands, and forested areas which in turn are bisected by an active railroad line, (no stops at the clubhouse guys).   ;) Its a tale of two 9s as the front 9 plays relativly wide open as many of the other holes on the front 9 can be readily seen while playing.  Whereas on the back 9, its more intimate in that you can't see any of the other holes other than the one you are playing.

The course is comprised of short to midrange par 5's, a nice mix of varying length par 4s, and longish par 3s.  Its biggest defense, besides the existence of lateral hazards on almost every hole, is the forced carries that are required off the tee on 15 of the 18 holes.  The course is fairly well bunkered, and interestingly enough, the vast majority are on the left hand side of the fairway or green complex.  I could only speculate that this is to make it less difficult for the average right-handed golfer who fades/slices thier shots.  In addition, and I know Sean is going to absolutly hate this, many of the bunkers lie between the green/fairway and a hazard.  :P

The fairway countouring holds one's interest on most holes and generally seems to follow the lay of the land. However, IMO, thier strength lies in that most holes are either played uphill or downhill, requiring a variety of sidehill/uphill/downhill approach shots. Even though the greens were recently punched, they still rolled well.  While they didn't seem to possess a lot of internal contouring, as with all courses on rolling terrain, it was critical to look at the surroundings to determine the break.

Overall, in terms of eye candy, this course is crack-o-licious. It was especially nice playing during the peak fall-color season as they contrasted well with the browns and greens on the course. But its not just a pretty face, there is a lot of strategy to be found on many of the holes, including the split fairway 4th and the short par 4s and 5s.  IMO I would put it between a 6 and 7 on the Doak scale.  It also seems to pass the casual golfer test as all of my golfing buddies in Spokane love it.  



Hole 1 - Par 5

Tee shot over the "enviromentally sensitive" area that plays down the entire left hand side of the hole



From the fairway:





Hole 2 - Par 4

A uphill tee shot on a shortish par 4.  Big hitters can get close to the green in 1.



The approach in for a mere mortal such as myself:





Hole 3 - Par 3

Downhill par 3 with the tracks as a backdrop.  Normally this plays into a crosswind and is a tough green to find from the tee.



A look at the collection area short and right of the green.





Hole 4 - Par 4

A split fairway hole, which actually works IMO.  Keep it low and left and have a shorter yet partially blind approach in.  Go to the right and its a little longer, but the line to the green has less trouble in the way.



A look at the slope of the fairway from a sideview, (taken from the 5th hole):



If you choose left off the tee, here is the approach in with a bombed tee shot:





Hole 5 - Par 5

This normally plays into the teeth of the wind and is the toughest forced carry on the course.



The approach in, notice the bunkering in between the green and the hazard.    :-\





Hole 6 - Par 4

The first real driveable par 4 on the course, yet still takes a big shot to make it all the way up the hill.....



....and avoid the massive bunker "outcropping" left and short of the green.



A look back down the hole with the 1st hole in the distance.




Hole 7 - Par 3

A mid-distance par 3 where short is dead.....obviously.   :D





Hole 8 - Par 4

You'll see this hole a lot in thier advertising photos.  Just don't go right and its usually just a wedge in.



The short approach to a tucked pin with a beautiful backdrop to the green complex.





Hole 9 - Par 4

This hole is a long beast which usually plays into a tough crosswind with OB right and the hazard left.



If you hit it long like Huck, you could have this reasonable approach in from the right.  Otherwise you are SOL as the green doesn't support a run-in approach with a long iron or fairway wood




Back 9 to follow...
« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 02:54:51 PM by Kalen Braley »

tlavin

Re:Circking Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2007, 02:36:30 PM »
The land looks pleasant, if unspectacular, but this might be the stupidest name for a golf course I've ever heard.  That, surely, has been the subject of another thread, so I'm not plotting a hijack here.  The course doesn't come off as seeming as "big" as described, but that is probably a function of the limitations of photography...

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2007, 02:46:55 PM »
Back 9...


Hole 10 - Par 4

A really short par 4 that is driveable.  Play safe left of the trees with a layup or drive the wetlands to the green.



The approach in when laying up



A look back...





Hole 11 - Par 4

A bite off as much as you can chew dog-leg left hole.  With the prevailing wind a huge hitter could get close to the green, but must assume plenty of risk.



After hitting a crap-tastic tee ball, here was my approach in:





Hole 12 - Par 5

A quasi split fairway of sorts.  Go right of the trees have a better line in, while left is the safer play.



The approach in where going left is very bad:





Hole 13 - Par 3

A gorgeous drop shot hole that still plays long despite the drop.





Hole 14 - Par 4

Shortish par 4 up the hill...



The approach in after hitting yet another indifferent tee shot:





Hole 15 - Par 4

The tee shot pic was fubar'd but here is the downhill approach in where long is wrong.  I loved the fall colors as a backdrop.




Hole 16 - Par 3

A downhill par 3, where once again long is the wrong miss as well as left or right.. :-X.  I did stuff a 7 iron to 2 feet for my only bird of the day.





Hole 17 - Par 5

The the tee shot over the pond to a tight landing area.



The approach in from the right hand side of the fairway





Hole 18 - Par 4

Disappointing finishing hole in my mind.  Dead straight with OB and containment mounding left and hazard right.



I think the bunkering was a little overdone on the approach.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 02:49:14 PM by Kalen Braley »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2007, 02:48:49 PM »
The land looks pleasant, if unspectacular, but this might be the stupidest name for a golf course I've ever heard.  That, surely, has been the subject of another thread, so I'm not plotting a hijack here.  The course doesn't come off as seeming as "big" as described, but that is probably a function of the limitations of photography...

Sorry Terry,

I mis-spelled it in the original post.  Its Circling Raven, not Circking Raven.   ;D

And yes I'm but a amateur photographer, but I tried my best.  ;)

Lyman Gallup

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2007, 02:54:08 PM »
And since the course is on an indian reservation, I'm pretty sure the "Circling Raven" has some connotation for the Coeur d'Alene tribe.

Bill Satterfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2007, 03:23:27 PM »
Nice pics Kalen; I LOVE Circling Raven.  A few years ago I played it three times in one day and loved every minute of it.  It doesn't have big time "WOW" holes, but it is just solid golf all day long.  It is a real "players" course in contrast to the CDA Resort's style of play.

My favorite holes are number 4, 10, 12, and 13.  13 has to be the toughest par 3 in the state measuring 253 yards from the tips and have protected wasteland to carry for 230 of it.  Bates always seems to have long par threes at his courses though.

I agree that 18 is a bit of an anti-climatic finish, but that whole back nine is so great having complete seclusion from the rest of the people/course that I love it anyway.

As a side note, I like the name Circling Raven.  I grow weary of courses that employ over used works like creek, lake, meadow, etc.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2007, 03:42:13 PM »
Cool tour; looks like a pretty darn good course to me.

I have to ask though - what are all those little while blobs?

TH

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2007, 03:50:58 PM »
Cool tour; looks like a pretty darn good course to me.

I have to ask though - what are all those little while blobs?

TH

I knew that question would come up and we came up with a couple of theories (I supposed I could have just asked inside)

Perhaps it was some sort of foam they had sprayed on the fairways to help with the frost in the mornig.  Or maybe it was the remants of some type of foamy fertilizer application they had done a couple of days before.

Either way I had a helluva time finding my tee ball on #5 because it came to rest right in one of these foam blobs so I had to go around feeling them all to eventually find it.   :D

I know your thoughts and feelings about hay that exists in front of tee boxes and just off the fairways.  While the fairways are pretty generous at CR, any thoughts on that?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 03:51:46 PM by Kalen Braley »

David Stamm

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Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2007, 03:55:27 PM »
This looks like a pretty fun course. Nice setting. Bates has done a few courses that I'd like to evetually play, such as San Juan Oaks. He's also the one redoing Fort Ord.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2007, 03:59:01 PM »
Kalen:

Well, yeah, I am rather against too much hay, or whatever one wants to call it, like the cutesy name they give it at that tons of fun course in Kansas.

But it doesn't look too bad at CR to me, from these pics.  I'd assume the bogey or worse golfers have a tee where they don't have to carry it on those holes where it's directly in front of the tee you played... and the fairways do look pretty darn wide.  In any case what kills me about "hay" like that is when it's too close to GREENS, and it sure doesn't seem to be like that at CR.

Thanks for the guesses about the white blobs, also.  I was gonna ask if it was snow, but then I felt stupid enough already.

 ;D

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2007, 03:59:34 PM »
Cool tour; looks like a pretty darn good course to me.

I have to ask though - what are all those little while blobs?

TH



I knew that question would come up and we came up with a couple of theories (I supposed I could have just asked inside)

Perhaps it was some sort of foam they had sprayed on the fairways to help with the frost in the mornig.  Or maybe it was the remants of some type of foamy fertilizer application they had done a couple of days before.

Either way I had a helluva time finding my tee ball on #5 because it came to rest right in one of these foam blobs so I had to go around feeling them all to eventually find it.   :D

I know your thoughts and feelings about hay that exists in front of tee boxes and just off the fairways.  While the fairways are pretty generous at CR, any thoughts on that?

Those white blobs are markers that allow the guy applying liquid feed to know where he has sprayed.  The soap suds come out of the far most end of the spray arms.  

Tom Huckaby

Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2007, 04:01:05 PM »
Daryl - thanks.  I assume they (a) aren't toxic, so Kalen can rest easy and not worry about growing a third eye or something; and (b) eventually dissipate?

TH

Tony Dear

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2007, 04:03:30 PM »
Tom, probably dirt on your screen (I didn't see any white blobs). And Kalen, great tour. I was there last week for my second visit and again loved every second. I like the big, wilderness, out-there scale of the place and really like the bunkering; sand, size, shape, position etc. I think the bunkers work perfectly, especially on the 4th which, thanks to their superb positioning, is perhaps the best hole on the course. Like you, I noticed the prevalence of sand on the left of the holes but it doesn't really occur to you until you think about it after the round, or if you pull your irons. I don't think it's a big deal, and if it means slicers/pushers have more fun then it's not a bad thing. The 18th is a very strong hole, I think - not the most memorable on the course by any means, but a stern challenge nonetheless. Thanks for the memories of what is fast becoming my favorite course in the States.
Tony

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2007, 04:04:23 PM »
Daryl - thanks.  I assume they (a) aren't toxic, so Kalen can rest easy and not worry about growing a third eye or something; and (b) eventually dissipate?

TH

Not to worry Huck, a third eye could be an improvement, especially if it were in the back of my head.

Daryl, thanks for the explanation, we spent a good solid hole debating what they could be... 8)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 04:05:26 PM by Kalen Braley »

Tony Dear

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Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2007, 04:08:05 PM »
My mistake. On closer inspection, I did see the blobs.
Tony

Daryl David

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Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2007, 04:12:53 PM »
Daryl - thanks.  I assume they (a) aren't toxic, so Kalen can rest easy and not worry about growing a third eye or something; and (b) eventually dissipate?

TH

Not to worry Huck, a third eye could be an improvement, especially if it were in the back of my head.

Daryl, thanks for the explanation, we spent a good solid hole debating what they could be... 8)

I am pretty sure it is non-toxic.  If you got down and licked them off the fairway, it might be like when your mom washed your mouth out with soap for swearing.  

Kyle Harris

Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2007, 03:38:39 AM »
Most foamers are food grade anyway... so eat the foam, just don't lick the plant between them...  ;)

Jordan Wall

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Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2007, 04:10:13 AM »
The bunkers remind me a lot of WA National.
Interesting.

Eric Franzen

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Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2007, 04:50:17 AM »
Nice tour, Kalen.

The bunkering actually looks very RTJ Jr to me.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2007, 06:56:53 PM »
Kalen, thanks for the pictures.  I started a thread on it a couple weeks ago but only had a few pictures.  I loved the place.  The course is very good, with the possible exception of 18 and the practice area, clubhouse etc is first rate.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mike_Cirba

Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2007, 09:50:02 PM »
Kalen,

I've only played one Bates course (Carolina National in NC) and I absolutely hated it.

With very few exceptions, your pics (which I appreciate you posting) did very little to change my impressions of his work.

Besides his ghastly, overly fussy bunkers (which evidently are as impressionistic and reflective of the remote, mountainous Washington landscape as they are of the swampy lowlands of NC), he seems insistive on placing them next to the absolutely worse places to hit a shot;  effectively making them all picturesque "saving", and "Framing" bunkers, which photograph pretty well but serve to kill any hint of ground-game interest on the course.   Instead of your ball hitting the low-side and continuing into a precarious position, the Bates Bunker will grab it quick and prevent such an unpredictable result.  

If you hit it to the safer side and miss, you generally end up with a tidy little up and down.

It's paint by numbers golf....or perhaps better analogized, golf with gutter ramps.  

Looks lovely, though.  :D

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2007, 09:55:19 PM »
Mike,

I have to agree with you 100% on that take.  While they do look pretty, IMO they really do perform as you pointed out.

I think the elevation changes and the location suit this course very well.  It really is a sprawling layout and the long grasses really do fit right in from a natural perspective in that area as there is mile after mile of the long stuff that is grown and harvested.

I've played a handful of his stuff here in Utah and they are not even close to the league that CR is in..

I will disagree on one of your points though...I didn't hate it, I liked the course.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 09:55:59 PM by Kalen Braley »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2007, 10:03:04 PM »
Kalen,

"Hate" is Mike Cirba terminology for "oh, what could have been".

Have you played Wasatch Mountain, Bonneville, Valley View, or Park City?

Would love to hear your impressions of any of them.   Even better, I'd hope we can get together sometime and play...anywhere.

Appreciate your passion...

Mike

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2007, 10:13:12 PM »
Kalen,

"Hate" is Mike Cirba terminology for "oh, what could have been".

Have you played Wasatch Mountain, Bonneville, Valley View, or Park City?

Would love to hear your impressions of any of them.   Even better, I'd hope we can get together sometime and play...anywhere.

Appreciate your passion...

Mike

Mike,

Thanks for the clarification, I thought hate was a bit strong, and I'm sure if you played CR, you wouldn't say that four letter word.   ;)

I have played 2 of the 4...Bonneville and Valley View.

I think I may do a review on Valley View, but I'm not as big on Bonneville as you are.  Yes it does have a nice stretch of holes on the front 9, including the downhill par 5 with the massive swale that doubles as a fairway and the green that slopes away from you.  But I was turned off by the back 9 as it seemed to be too much back and forth, straight away holes, with little strategy to speak of other than bashing it long and straight.  That being said, I've only played it once and I think I need to make a return visit or two to get a better take on the course.  (I did really like the 18th hole though that plays over the ravine with the 2nd shot.)

As for valley view, I will use you definition of "hate" on this one.  This course could have been a solid 6 on the doak scale, but they blew it with all of the man made ponds that are everywhere on the course.  The greens were just out of this world and nothing short of genius, and the undulating land it sits on has just the right of amount of up and down to it.  Perhaps if they could have just had creeks throughout the course, that would have been a huge improvement.

As for Wasatch Mountain, I hope to get up there this season, and the colors are peaking, but its a bit of a drive to the other side of the mountain range from here.

We do need to get together and have a game sooner rather than later.  My wife is traveling to Philly in another few weeks and has asked if I want to come along.  How is the weather in your neck of the woods??

Mike_Cirba

Re:Circling Raven - A course tour (with pics)
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2007, 10:21:39 PM »
Kalen,

Your reviews of both Bonneville and Valley View are dead spot-on.   I knew I liked you for a reason!  ;)   Wanna guess which nine at Bonneville was designed by Willie Tucker in the 20s and which one was done later (in the 50s) by an aging Willam Bell and his son Billy?   ;D

Valley View has some of the best holes in the west, and if they took all of the artificial water hazards off of this course it would be incredible.   It's sort of like the child painter who doesn't know when to stop adding new colors and features, but somewhere in there is an incredible golf course waiting to be unearthed.  

The weather in Philly has been unbelievably good and this week is supposed to rise into the low 80s again.   Give me a shout.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 10:40:26 PM by MikeCirba »