[Garland Bayley]

Hey Jay,

Your site says that Yale 17 is a biarritz, but you claim here you never said that. What's with that?

[Patrick Kiser]

One thing's for sure ... much more would be learned from this site with a better search engine.  Even using Google search doesn't do much.


Ran,

I'm ready to pony up to the need...

[Bill_McBride]

Hey Jay,

Your site says that Yale 17 is a biarritz, but you claim here you never said that. What's with that?

I think he actually said it is a "bizarre double plateau" and some readers may have misread his comment.

Or maybe not!  

I truly admire Jay for having the cojones to spend as much time writing about golf, and actually creating a venue for his writing, as he does.  A lot of us "talk the talk," Jay walks the walk, at least in writing.  And maybe he misspeaks from time to time, but what the hell, who's perfect?

[Jay Flemma]

Garland, Bill and Yes tommy...the article you quote is from a year and a half ago.  I corrected the mistake elsewhere, but didn't fix it there.  Thanks for pointing it out.  It'll be fixed in a few minutes.

I was wrong back then, but I fixed it.  Problem solved.  But you know what else...OLD NEWS.  You guys keep harping on an article I wrote back in June of '06.  OLD NEWS.

NOW...Tommy...I re-confirmed...YOU ARE ARE WRONZG.  I NEVER SAID MACAN WAS SCHOOLED BY BEHR.  I said he followed Behr's principles.  SO as usual, you write an encyclopaedia of incorrect suspicion upon a single word you interpret incorrectly.

[Joe Hancock]

I was wrong back then, but I fixed it.  Problem solved.  But you know what else...OLD NEWS.  You guys keep harping on an article I wrote back in June of '06.  OLD NEWS.

Good luck with your logic on this explanation. It hasn't worked on my wife in 25 years of marriage.

Joe

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Relax Jay, It's only a internet discussion. (If I had a dime for everytime I've reacted like you on this website I would have enough money to buy all the political power I needed here in California to make the Guadalupe Dunes a world class golf experience.)

Jay,
You think I'm terrorizing you and, well, you couldn't be more wrong. I'm trying to help you here, for God's sake man! Help me to help you Jay. H E L P  M E  T O  H E L P  Y O U.......

You say, and I quote:

Vernon, as he was called, was inspired by the design concepts of John Low and Max Behr......

Sounds like a pretty factual statement to me.

I'm asking you, Jay, where did you find this?

Where did you get this information that Macan followed Low and Behr's principles?

I'm asking because I've never seen this ever, not even once in print. If you have proof of this, show it, that's all I'm asking.

Crazy Joe,
Someday I'm going to pin a medal on the wife of yours. Maybe give her a purple heart too.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tommy,

Reportedly, while Macan was recovering from his WWI injuries/amputation, he did read (and re-read) Concerning Golf. I don't know about Behr, but it seems Macan was very familiar with, and a student of John Low's architectural principles (as per Mike Riste's excellent research).

[Jay Flemma]

Exactly, Jeff.  Jeff Shelley agrees as well.  After reading Concerning Golf, Macan studied Behr as well as Low.

I heard from some people today that...I think its called Golf Club of California?...was terrific.

[David Stamm]

Tommy,

Reportedly, while Macan was recovering from his WWI injuries/amputation, he did read (and re-read) Concerning Golf. I don't know about Behr,  

Jay, I just want to point out that Concerning Golf was a Low book. Behr curiously never did a book. Unless Macan made it down to So Cal, where almost every course he did resides, it would've been difficult for him to glean any particular style per se, only concepts from his many articles and essays. While I have by no means read everything Behr has ever done, I do know from what I have read that Behr talked a great deal about what an ideal course was and the virtues of what strategy really meant. However, he did so few courses that it's hard to garner what he "put on the ground" unless those courses were visited and the photo's of those courses ( at time of completion) were seen at the perspective clubs, since alot of Behr's work has been altered so much from what they were originally.

[Jay Flemma]

David, where did I say he read a book by Behr?  I didn't.  Of course  he got to SoCal.  He got to freakin Honolulu!

[David Stamm]

 Macan studied Behr as well as Low.

 

I didn't. I merely made a side point that Behr never did one, which was curious since his voice was huge in the world of arch and golf in general in the early 20th century. And BTW, it would've been strange of me to say he read one since he never wrote one, but I'm sure you knew that. Hawaii is a few thousand miles away. I'm sure he could've gotten there from the Pacific Northwest if he had to. I'm curious, is it known when he visited Hawaii?

[Jay Flemma]

I tell ya what...why don't you ask Jeff Shelley or Mingay?  They know more about him than I do.

[David Stamm]

I tell ya what...why don't you ask Jeff Shelley or Mingay?  They know more about him than I do.

Fair enough.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

After reading Concerning Golf, Macan studied Behr as well as Low.

I heard from some people today that...I think its called Golf Club of California?...was terrific.

Jay,
What people?

I've never heard of this book, Golf Club of California. Was it a magazine article, andif so, what magazine was it from? Or are you saying that Max Behr or was it Macan that designed a course called Golf Club of California?

What are you saying?

Is Jeff Shelley telling you that he (Macan) studied Max Behr? If so, where is the proof that he studied Behr? That's what I'm asking for. I want proof. Please show it to me.

Certainly to come up with this phenomenal, amazing piece of information, you had to have some form of proof other then what someone told you. Right?

Thanks

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jay, Are you trying to say The California Golf Club of San Francisco aka The Cal Club?

From what I've researched so far, if indeed Macan was there, it wasn't long afterwards that some surgeon named Alister redid it.

Jay, I want proof of Macan studying Max Behr. Where did you find this information?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tommy's right about Cal Club. Macan redesigned the club's original course some time during the 1920s, then very shortly after MacKenzie arrived and redid some stuff there. Kyle Phillips and co. are currently reworking Cal Club.

Re Behr. I'm sure Macan was familiar with him. Like Behr, Macan wrote quite a few articles on architecture for the old west coast magazines. I know he read them, too, and thus was very likely familiar with Behr's writings and philosophies. I don't have any proof of this, really. But it seems logical.

Reading Macan's articles is not much different than reading the likes of Behr, MacKenzie, et al. Macan was definitely on the 'same page' as these guys.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jeff,
Yes, Macan did write for Pacific Coast Golfer and probably in all likelihood did read the writings of Max Behr, but without definitive proof, such as a quote that would be speculation now wouldn't it?

And that's my point here. Definitive proof. I'm asking Jay to provide this. That's all I want. Jay, the platform is yours. Let see your proof.

[Sean_Tully]

Some assumptions can be made that they would have indeed crossed in written word and most likely over a golf course. Macan was into the rules of golf and would referee over big matches back in the day. In 1925-26, Macan was in the Bay area working on some courses and so was Behr. The distance between the two courses was less than 4 miles. They may have even played in a tournament together in Monterey during this time frame. These guys are cut from the same cloth, with one only being slightly better known than the other by todays golfing public.

Tully

[Jay Flemma]

Tommy, I am not responding to you.  I am not interested in satisfying your curiosity, having discussions with your anything else.  Who the hell do you think you are to ask anything of me after the cheap tricks you TRY to pull on me?  And don't play dumb, you know what I'm referring to.  I have a long memory.

Go prove whatever you want to yourself.  You are not "King of all things Behr"...or GCA for that matter.

[Bill_McBride]

Some assumptions can be made that they would have indeed crossed in written word and most likely over a golf course. Macan was into the rules of golf and would referee over big matches back in the day. In 1925-26, Macan was in the Bay area working on some courses and so was Behr. The distance between the two courses was less than 4 miles. They may have even played in a tournament together in Monterey during this time frame. These guys are cut from the same cloth, with one only being slightly better known than the other by todays golfing public.

Tully

Tully, Macan was working on Cal Club, where was Behr working within four miles?

How are things at the Meadow Club?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Panhandle Bill,
Max Behr created the NLE Capuchino CC and did work at Olympic Club.

Jay, I'm just holding you accountable for your writing.

I'll email Jeff Shelley myself if I have to to find out where you/he/whomever found out this important information that you have uncovered, yet won't explain your sources. (I suspect a journalistic integrity on your part at it's very worst. But why am I not surprised?)

Yes, it is hard to do a blog everyday. Panhandle Bill is right about that. But maybe this is a reason you should stick to other subjects you have more knowledge of. Certainly your Macan piece is as informative as your writing that George Bahto co-authored his book with Charles Banks, whose been dead since 1931.

From the Walk in the Park blog:

ONe editorial note, some of the hole descriptions are excerpted by Jim from Bahto and Banks’ book which descirbes Yale really well.

For you to make such assumptions without FACTS is what I am getting at here. You see Jay, I do believe Macan probably knew of Behr, probably read him just like many were during the day. He was a controversial figure that had to be listened to simply because he was one of the better known amateur players of his day and was the editor of Golf Illustrated;as well as contributor to the USGA Green Section, and each and everyone of his articles and writing took people to task for their, inaccuracies and viewpoints of the Sport at large.

Did he follow Behr's principles? No, I don't think so. They may have been of the same cloth as Tull has suggested, but the shaping wasn't all that great; sort of piles here and there, mind you interesting piles, but not random in nature. In my opinion, the routing and use of land was Macan's strong suit and if I can make a broad assumption on my part--probably the reason why MacKenzie and Robert Hunter's American Golf Course Construction was brought in at Cal Club to alter Macan's original design.

You know Jay, that's a lot of information right there, so feel free to use it when you change your treatise and eliminate the revisionist tendencies of your writings--at least in this latest chapter of A Walk In The Park.

(By the way, wasn't this the name of a Golfweek book?)

[Bill_McBride]

Panhandle Bill,
Max Behr created the NLE Capuchino CC and did work at Olympic Club.

Tommy, I grew up in the Bay Area and am familiar with pretty much everything ever built there, but not the "Capuchino CC" - I'm all ears!  What can you tell me about it?  Where was it?  When did it become NLE?

Fascinating stuff.  Capuchino CC?  

Thanks in advance for any info from anyone who has details.

[Jay Flemma]

Tommy, I'm not listening and neither is Jeff.  You don;t hold me accountable for anything.  You have no integrity and are crying for attention with your vacuous, thespian like bombast.

THIS THREAD IS CLOSED.

[Bill_McBride]

But I still want to know about Capuchino CC!  

[Garland Bayley]

...
THIS THREAD IS CLOSED.

Wow, even George and I don't inspire that much animosity in Barney.

What's your secret Tommy?
 

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