changes at Dismal River?

[John Kavanaugh]

I did hear they have lowered their lowest priced membership to 30k. That one I won't be springing for.

They have always had better deals than that for restricted memberships.  I have told many people across the country how great a deal I think it would be.  

[kurt bowman]

Kurt, are you saying that Brad Klein lied about hearing this? I would be real sure before calling someone something like this. If he was misinformed, then fine. And I do think someone can be unbiased while performing their own work, so I'm not sure what that has to do with that.

David,

I know for a fact that the routing was not an afterthought,and/or quickly thrown together in 2 days. Why would Brad say that if it is not a known fact, especially given the fact that he is a writer, not a casual observer? He is certainly entitled to his opinion,and a writer should hold himself to a higher standard as the readers tend to believe that their comments are credible.

Kurt

[John Kavanaugh]

Except that he's simply dead wrong about it.

Anyone who elevates ignorance and obliviousness into a principle of virtue, whether Nicklaus on design or John Kavanaugh on this site, condems himself (or his body of work) to irrelevance.

Here is the quote that made my day.  I had just got off a plane and was riding the parking shuttle to my car.  I can't tell you how nice it made the long ride home.

[David Stamm]

JK, so Urbina, Wagner, Kittleman etc don't because.... I'm sorry why? Is Brad not entitled in a public forum to express that he didn't care for the routing? The man is a critic and is paid for being one. Besides, what do you care what Brad thinks? I thought you only cared about non critics, non raters or non archs in regards to this course?

   Where have the guys who work for Rees or Fazio been hiding when lies are spread about their offices?  

 

Point taken and noted, but how do we know if they are lies or not? (I'm not sure specifically what lies you are speaking, so I can't comment). Perhaps their silence, well, you know the rest. But it's probably they just didn't have the desire, plain and simple.

[David Stamm]

Kurt, are you saying that Brad Klein lied about hearing this? I would be real sure before calling someone something like this. If he was misinformed, then fine. And I do think someone can be unbiased while performing their own work, so I'm not sure what that has to do with that.

David,

I know for a fact that the routing was not an afterthought,and/or quickly thrown together in 2 days. Why would Brad say that if it is not a known fact, especially given the fact that he is a writer, not a casual observer? He is certainly entitled to his opinion,and a writer should hold himself to a higher standard as the readers tend to believe that their comments are credible.

Kurt

I'm glad to hear the scoop. I just wasn't certain what to make of a statement "What a great way to lie" means, that's all. Do you know what the correct info is?

[kurt bowman]

Point taken and noted, but how do we know if they are lies or not?

David,

We know because any writer worth a lick would substantiate a claim like this before he wrote it. So what am I left to conclude. Remember he is a writer from a prominent golf magazine, not a casual observer. I would have let you off the hook easier provided that you are not a golf writer, or run a golf ranking panel. HE IS. Big difference.

Kurt

[David Stamm]

Point taken and noted, but how do we know if they are lies or not?

David,

We know because any writer worth a lick would substantiate a claim like this before he wrote it. So what am I left to conclude. Remember he is a writer from a prominent golf magazine, not a casual observer. I would have let you off the hook easier provided that you are not a golf writer, or run a golf ranking panel. HE IS. Big difference.

Kurt

I didn't tell you, I'm the head of the ranking panel for Better Homes and Gardens.


All points duely noted. My comments that you quoted where in reference to John's comments about Fazio and Rees, not our conversation about Brad's comments, so please don't misquote me.

[kurt bowman]

FYI... I just got off the phone with Chris Cochran who was the lead designer for us at DR so I could give you all the play by play on the changes made there.


Fairway # 4:

The heavy soil was removed and replaced with sand. This area was where the cattle tended to congregate and over the years in became a little heavy. They had hoped that putting in draining sumps during construction would work, but it didn't. In the end they found a borrow pit with good sand, and capped the fairway for agronomic reasons.

Fairway #13: The pitch of the landing area was quite strong and as the golf cars exited the fairway the grass (fescue) could not hold up to the stress. The fairway pitch was lessened as a result of this.

Greens:

In March of 06 there was several days with winds over 70mph. As any GCS will tell you, that is not a great thing on inmature greens.The ninth green had several feet of send settle on top of it. The GCS did his best to clean it up himself, but in the end it needed to be re-graded.

Greens #5 and #6: Had settled after construction and needed to be re-worked in some areas.

#11 green: A bunker was removed from in front of the green that blinded a portion of the green per the owners request.

I may be leaving a few details out as I was not on site or involved in this project, but this is the jist of it.

Regards,

Kurt

[David Stamm]

Thanks for the info Kurt. I hope the changes will benefit the course in the long run.

[Jerry Kluger]

Does someone have a routing of the course - this could clear up some things.

[Forrest Richardson]

Brian Curtis, the clubhouse designer, has a routing...I will ask if he can post it.

[Jim Nugent]

A course profile, with photos, would be greatly appreciated, by me and I bet many others on this site.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Their website is very decent, with good photos (MAIN MENU is way low and left, FYI)

http://www.dismalriver.com/

[Garland Bayley]

...
I know for a fact that the routing was not an afterthought,and/or quickly thrown together in 2 days. ...

Do you know this as first hand knowledge, or did someone tell you?
 

[Adam Clayman]

FYI... I just got off the phone with Chris Cochran who was the lead designer for us at DR so I could give you all the play by play on the changes made there.


Fairway # 4:

The heavy soil was removed and replaced with sand. This area was where the cattle tended to congregate and over the years in became a little heavy. They had hoped that putting in draining sumps during construction would work, but it didn't. In the end they found a borrow pit with good sand, and capped the fairway for agronomic reasons.

Fairway #13: The pitch of the landing area was quite strong and as the golf cars exited the fairway the grass (fescue) could not hold up to the stress. The fairway pitch was lessened as a result of this.

Greens:

In March of 06 there was several days with winds over 70mph. As any GCS will tell you, that is not a great thing on inmature greens.The ninth green had several feet of send settle on top of it. The GCS did his best to clean it up himself, but in the end it needed to be re-graded.

Greens #5 and #6: Had settled after construction and needed to be re-worked in some areas.

#11 green: A bunker was removed from in front of the green that blinded a portion of the green per the owners request.

I may be leaving a few details out as I was not on site or involved in this project, but this is the jist of it.

Regards,

Kurt

Ahhhmmm....

The number of greens that were regraded this year has been confirmed, and, we were all wrong.

Good to know no one has tristadecaphobia.

 

[Greg Tallman]

Come on group... I am disappointed that you seem to allow facts from someone in the know get in the way of a good Nicklaus bashing thread.

Brad Kein, You DO need to understand your place in the industry a bit better even when posting on a message board. Highly unprofessional and a bit below your standard.

[Steve Lapper]

Come on group... I am disappointed that you seem to allow facts from someone in the know get in the way of a good Nicklaus bashing thread.

Brad Kein, You DO need to understand your place in the industry a bit better even when posting on a message board. Highly unprofessional and a bit below your standard.

Though I suspect Brad Klein hardly needs mine or anyone else's help in defending himself, your last sentence in the above post is most unwelcome here on any GCA thread.

Brad, along with many other considerably "importantly-placed" people from within the golf industry, have done the entire golf profession and community a wonderful service by posting their thoughts and responses here on the GCA message board. The level of discourse here, regardless of personal or professional tastes, has provided significant help and assistance to a broad spectrum of golf-related professionals and amateurs alike. So very many people from the industry come here to read, learn and seek enlightenment on a wide array of golf-related topics.

 Rather than turn this into a scathing attack on what I perceive to be a totally unjustifiable criticism of Brad's observational skills and his unalienable right to have his opinion freely heard to all who choose to hear it, I instead strongly suggest you consider erasing your past post, and then I'll do the same here. That would be the "professional" way to handle this!

[Greg Tallman]

Come on group... I am disappointed that you seem to allow facts from someone in the know get in the way of a good Nicklaus bashing thread.

Brad Kein, You DO need to understand your place in the industry a bit better even when posting on a message board. Highly unprofessional and a bit below your standard.

Though I suspect Brad Klein hardly needs mine or anyone else's help in defending himself, your last sentence in the above post is most unwelcome here on any GCA thread.

Brad, along with many other considerably "importantly-place" people from within the golf industry, have done the entire golf profession and community a wonderful service by posting their thoughts and responses here on the GCA message board. The level of discourse here, regardless of personal or professional tastes, has provided significant help and assistance to a broad spectrum of golf-related professionals and amateurs alike. So very many people from the industry come here to read, learn and seek enlightenment on a wide array of golf-related topics.

 Rather than turn this into a scathing attack on what I perceive to be a totally unjustifiable criticism of Brad's observational skills and his unalienable right to have his opinion freely heard to all who choose to hear it, I instead strongly suggest you consider erasing your past post, and then I'll do the same here. That would be the "professional" way to handle this!

Steve, Brad posted gossip related to the lack of time spent by a design team in coming up with a routing... something less than admirable from any journalist in any forum and thus I do not understand what it is exaclty that you are taking issue with.

[Steve Lapper]

Greg,

   Read closely. Brad only repeated what his "sources" told him and his only "impression" was the determination "to make it a naturalistic routing." Journalists rely every day on their sources and only they can judge the informations quality and veracity. There are almost always two sides to any story and as a long time reader of Brad's work I, for one, have no problem believing his judgement and writings over those of others. Without going into any personal opinion of DR (withheld for a variety or reasons), the recent reshaping and scale of work does, at least, suggest that not enough thought and preparation by those responsible was ultimately evident on this project.

  My issues is with those that tell others what they post or not post based on callow interpretations of "professionalism" and industry place." Your post, with these terms, masquerades as political correct bullshit and don't have much of a place in a forum for freedom of expression and opinion.

 

[Greg Tallman]

It is not his opinion of the work to which I refer... only his endorsement of the rumor that the routing was conceived in two days.

Why would a journalist print "I heard such and such" if there were no underlying agenda?

I know our socitey has fallen into a realm where gossip is king and printing anything is acceptable but some are expected to be above such nonsense.

Failure to name the "on site" source smacks of uncertainty and thus should not have been submitted for public consumption.

I must say thank you as this would be the first time in history I have been accused of being politically correct.

[Michael Dugger]

If it is indeed the case only a few holes have had to be tweaked, and much of this because of weather related erosion issues, I wish to retract any comments I have made regarding negligence.

 

[Lester George]

Bob,

Nice answer on the reasons why you don't just fix it.

Brad,

I once had someone suggest that a routing should not take more than twenty or thirty minutes.  You would shocked to know who it was, next time I see you (FEB 2008?) I tell you if you care.

Lester

[Brad Klein]

I'm not sure I can wait until Feb. 2008. But I'll bet it wasn't Vinny Giles and I'm sure it didn't have to do with Kinloch.

[Adam Clayman]

If it is indeed the case only a few holes have had to be tweaked, and much of this because of weather related erosion issues, I wish to retract any comments I have made regarding negligence.

 

Michael- THIRTEEN greens were re-graded. They had ZERO to do with erosion or weather. They were ill-conceived and IMO, poorly constructed. Considering the grass choice and height.

BTW, Alterations to the 18th hole are NOT planned, yet.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

While the questions and innuendo are flying, I would like to know if any regrading was done on the 12th green.  Let's try to be specific.

After hitting a few shots into that green and subsequently trying several different approaches to chipping it would have seemed that keeping the ball on the green was near impossible.  Every shot seemed to end up short and right from where a new shot had to be created.  

Has the counter roll on the front edge been regraded or is this been allowed to remain?  Any one else had trouble with this green?  

#13;  The fairway was regraded to allow less wear by the golf carts?  The tee shot was one of the most uncomfortable I have ever tried to hit and then the ball caroms to the left into god knows what.  Why not just say that this bold experiment was ill advised and say that the fairway was simply too difficult for a course with the environmetal conditions at Dismal, or hell maybe it was just unplayable.  

Dismal is an astonishing setting and like many courses discussed here is very good without being fabulous.  Love to play again if i'm visiting but wouldn't like it as a steady diet.