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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2007, 06:34:28 PM »
Brent Hutto, et. al.,

I didn't confine reading/studying to the works of ODG's.

Rich Goodale, et. al.,

I didn't confine the issue, solely to reading their works.  Studying their works was included.


Would an indication of one's interest and dedication be revealed by the quality and quantity of GCA publications, authored by the great architects and other interested GCA parties, that one has read ?

Ross,
Tillinghast
MacDonald
Behr
McKenzie
Hunter
Thomas
et. al.,

Can one have a comprehensive understanding of architecture without reading and/or studying their works ?  
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 06:35:12 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2007, 06:47:46 PM »
Nicely turned Pat.  ;D

JK, Why is it an either/or situation?  To sacrifice of the joy of discovery doesn't exclude what you call the immediacy of learning.  (actually, I may not understand what you mean by the immediacy of learning in this context, since to me - learning isn't immediate, and not even guranteed over long time  ;) ;D 8) )

But, if you mean that it is a sacrifice to go out and just play and observe as a joyful experience, rather than build a foundation of learning or understanding the architect first - through research and reading what is available from their prior writings, then I see it as diminishing what extra knowledge you could have obtained, before just playing.  Why see it as somehow ruining your joyful experience of discovery by just playing with an attitude of anti learning as much as you can first, or at the same approximate time as the playing?  What can a little more information hurt?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2007, 07:20:36 PM »
Kalen & Tom Huckaby,

I had Bart Oates, who has three super bowl rings and played in five Pro Bowls address my town's pre-high school football teams on Tuesday.

He gave a terrific talk that was very well received by the players, the coaches and the parents.  It dealt with hard work, team concepts, discipline and school.

Bart graduated Cum Laude from Law School and is doing quite well after 11 or 12 seasons in the NFL.

Mike Ditka, when commenting on Stanford's win over USC also made a statement about academics.

He said, "Those guys at Stanford, they actually go to class too."

I don't think anyone on Stanford is taking one class, especially a class in DANCE.  I forget, how many, and what classes did Leinart take his last year at USC ?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2007, 09:29:48 PM »

Quote
Can one have a comprehensive understanding of architecture without reading and/or studying their works ?

Certainly, depending of course on how you want to define "comprehensive". But don't confuse the notion that an intense interest in architecture leads most people to read books written about or by the Old Dead Guys with the idea that such reading is necessary.

Those guys built courses that are now considered unquestioned gems, courses that have been valued and appreciated by generations of golfers. However, a course gaining that sort of stature is as much a historical contingency as it is the inevitable result of the (attributed) architect's intentions. If you want to understand a golf course, a good starting point is the following thought...

It is what it is.

There is no unique path leading back inexolerably from the course as it exists and is played today to the thing the architect had it mind when he first saw the property (or a topo-map representation of same). So if a course is superior to most others right here and now it may or may not be because the ideas and intentions behind that course were superior to those of any number of courses created at the same time by the same archie or his contemporaries.

Therefore, I'd argue that books written by the architects of notable courses have no special place in the universe of original source materials. If you want to understand Pinehurst #2 there are many documents you might want to examine, covering aspects of the course's history over the century of its existence. Books written by its architect explaining general principles and philosophies would come pretty far down that list in my opinion. The course is its entire history, it is in no way a pure expression of the general principles Donald Ross thought he was implementing.

Brent,
I been trying to say this for years.....

Bob Crosby,
As you know my daughter was a music major at IU and has advised me that Conway Twitty studied both the works of  Mozart and Bach and eventually played at the Oprey...and I am sure you know Vince Gill was Pure Prairie League with the hit song "Amie" before turning down Mark Knopfler for Dire Straits and turning country....they both read all that music stuff...all part of finding one's style or market....I even thought of calling myself an Old Dead Guy expert at one time....because I had been reading those books..but I just could not get into all the seances...one night i was talking to donald and got confused and started talking to Seth and it pissed them all off so i just went my own way.
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2007, 10:16:25 PM »
Only if Jack Nicklaus has read these books. I've read many of the books but maybe I've should have been reading the swing tips in Golf Digest so my swing  would translate to an understanding of GCA.

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2007, 10:17:49 PM »
well done good sir
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Phil_the_Author

Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2007, 11:21:30 PM »
Whether one likes the ratinking of courses done by the major publications, the latest one by GOLF Magazine bears out an interesting fact that sheds light onto Pat's Question.

22 of the "Top 100" US courses were designed by 2 men... Tillinghast and Ross. (11 each)

After all these years and all the new courses designed by many very talented men, WHY are these two still thought of as being head and shoulders above the rest simply based on those numbers?

Could it be that their design philosophies were really better than others to such an extent that all these years later they still can't be matched?

Then you have others such as Flynn, Macdonald, Mackenzie, etc... who have numerous "Top 100" courses beyond the amounts of almost all architects in the years since then.

Maybe today's architects need to understand not just what greatness is, but how it is brought about from the blank canvass of unworked land, before they too will produce creations that can stand as equals to the ODG's.

That, at least in my opinion, is why reading their thoughts on design are a most important learning process...

Tom Huckaby

Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2007, 11:37:18 PM »
Kalen & Tom Huckaby,

I had Bart Oates, who has three super bowl rings and played in five Pro Bowls address my town's pre-high school football teams on Tuesday.

He gave a terrific talk that was very well received by the players, the coaches and the parents.  It dealt with hard work, team concepts, discipline and school.

Bart graduated Cum Laude from Law School and is doing quite well after 11 or 12 seasons in the NFL.

Mike Ditka, when commenting on Stanford's win over USC also made a statement about academics.

He said, "Those guys at Stanford, they actually go to class too."

I don't think anyone on Stanford is taking one class, especially a class in DANCE.  I forget, how many, and what classes did Leinart take his last year at USC ?

Sigh... I guess humor is to much to expect at difficult times like these, Patrick.  And I had such high hopes for you.

You have to admit that clip was pretty darn funny.  Well, check that - YOU don't - but every other ND fan I showed it to did, and none sure had the gall to give USC crap given the state of ND football these days!

Charlie's head set was broken... great stuff.


 ;D
« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 12:01:24 AM by Tom Huckaby »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2007, 11:46:05 PM »
I wonder what thoughts and writings the ODG's studied while producing thier efforts?
Or did thier ideas just spring out of a vacuum......there was very little to emulate from thier predeccesors.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 11:52:39 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2007, 11:57:07 PM »
I wonder what thoughts and writings the ODG's studied while producing thier efforts?
Or did thier ideas just spring out of a vacuum....as there was very little to emulate from thier predeccesors.


Indeed, Paul.

It seems that they were all smart enought to realise the superiority of links golf to anything else that was around at the turn of the 20th century and did their best to learn from the TOC, Prestwick and the greats that were in place at the time. How they applied this to non-links land is as much of a mystery as how Elvis took black folk's music and played it so white folk enjoyed it - something we don't get tired of talking about.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2007, 12:00:21 AM »
I wonder what thoughts and writings the ODG's studied while producing thier efforts?
Or did thier ideas just spring out of a vacuum......there was very little to emulate from thier predeccesors.




Paul, that's too easy. There wasn't anything written so how could they refer to anything, other than what they've seen?


This in my mind raises a point. CBM, MacK, Colt, Behr, Ross, Tillie, Thomas all paid visits to Old Tom as well as TOC. How much did Tom teach them? How large of a role did Old Tom have in their developments as architects and greenskeeping in general?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2007, 12:33:48 AM »
Paul, not that I consider myself an expert, but as I mentioned on a previous post above, they were the first to commit the elements of the profession of GCA to the written word.  They themselves had very little in the way of written prescriptions about GCA to study, yet they wrote of how they sought out Old Tom and Braid and others among the very small numbers of top golfers and course greenskeepers, and 'layer outers' (if you will allow the terminology).  But, Mac, C.B., Tillie, Ross, Bendelow, sure made a point to let us know in their own writings, what TOC meant to them in terms of a standard or model to incorporate into their burgeoning ideas on GCA.

Should the practice of GCA be predicated first upon tradition and understanding the seminal roots by reading what is handed down, or should we start from a basis of playing experience on a variety of courses that now exist and not concern ourselves with understanding what the ODGs left us?  

If Einstein and Hawking were going to build a world class golf course, would they get a better result only from the understandings of the teachings they received from Galileo and Archimedes, or would they benefit more from the writings of MacKenzie, Ross and teachings of Old Tom?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Rich Goodale

Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2007, 04:16:16 AM »
Brent Hutto, et. al.,

I didn't confine reading/studying to the works of ODG's.

Rich Goodale, et. al.,

I didn't confine the issue, solely to reading their works.  Studying their works was included.


Would an indication of one's interest and dedication be revealed by the quality and quantity of GCA publications, authored by the great architects and other interested GCA parties, that one has read ?

Ross,
Tillinghast
MacDonald
Behr
McKenzie
Hunter
Thomas
et. al.,

Can one have a comprehensive understanding of architecture without reading and/or studying their works ?  


Semantic points taken, Pat.

I still say "No" to the first question.  there are a lot of people (many on this site) whose interest and dedication to GCA is unquestionable, but read about it only sproadically.

As for question 2, even thought it is a straw man (nobody, even Doak or TE Paul or you, or even me! has a truly "comprehesive" understanding of architecture) I'll still say "Yes."  There are far more idiot savants out there who can look at a hole and nail what it is all about than all you book learners might care to admit.

rich

Rich Goodale

Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2007, 07:40:11 AM »
Paul

It makes very much sense, although in which of the 6 senses I am not yet sure.......

Let's take a specific example.  The 14th at the Old Course.  Many if not most of us have read Mackenzie's thoughts on this hole and seen his diagram as to possible ways to play the hole in the 1920's.  The diagram and the analysis looks cool, but it was trivial then and is trivial now

Today, in the Noughties, standing on whatever tee, what reelvance do Dr. MacK's thoughts have now?  Sure, you hit it as far right as you dare, and if you dare not, you bail out to the left.  And after that, depending on how well you do on the drive, you make some other choices.  One could have said exactly the same thing for the 14th at Pebble Beach, both now and then, with similar vapid effect.

As Joyce Wethered once importantly said when asked the secret of golf:

"Just hit the fucking ball!"

Amen.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2007, 08:15:55 AM »
I like to drink fine wine.  I even own a little.  I used to "hang out" at a number of wine web fora.  I found discussion on there interesting and educational.  I met guys from those sites and drank wine together.  I dicovered wines I'd never have drunk before.  I learned much about how wine is produced.  I was captivated by discussions as to different styles and wine making methods as to which were true to the terroir and the grape and which were not.  Due to the great generousity of many people I drank many great wines I would not otherwise have drunk.

I still enjoy wine, I still drink with some of those guys (I'm doing so tonight,in fact) and I still read on the subject.  What I've learned, however, is that some talk and study to enhance their enjoyment of the wines they drink.  Others intellectualise so much that they now drink to enhance their enjoyment of talking about wine.  That isn't why I want to drink wine.  And it isn't why I play golf.

I've read a number of books on GCA (I'm reading one at the moment).  I haven't read a book by an ODG.  I may well one day.  Does it mean that I can't think about GCA, have valid opinions and take the subject seriously if I don't?  I don't think so but I guess it depends on what you mean by serious.

One more thing.  I can read as much as I like about Mozart but I won't learn as much as I will listening to a piece of his music.  No book will teach me as much about the architecture of Frank Lloyd Wright as a visit to one of his buildings.  Reading won't tell me as much about Michaelangelo's art as a visit to the Cistine Chapel.  I'll learn more about MacKenzie's arcitecture from playing Alwoodley than from reading his books, though the combination of the two will be a powerful learning tool indeed.  Whether I'd learn as much about his architecture from his books as I have from a couple of recent threads here, I doubt.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 08:40:24 AM by Mark Pearce »
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Manuel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2007, 08:29:34 AM »
OK, I'll bite.  What did Da Vinci create at the Sistine Chapel?  I thought it was Michelangelo?
The golf ball is like a woman, you have to talk it on the off chance it might listen.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2007, 08:38:31 AM »
OK, I'll bite.  What did Da Vinci create at the Sistine Chapel?  I thought it was Michelangelo?
D'Oh!  I was going to use the Mona Lisa as my example and changed my mind.  Disastrously, as it turns out.  Perhaps I should just drink more wine...............
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Rich Goodale

Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2007, 08:51:13 AM »
Mark

You were far more sober than you thought.  I have no doubt you were referring above to the "Cistine" Chapel, in which reside both Da Vinci's "Madonna in the Road Hole Bunker" and Jack Nicklaus' plans for the final (and possibly apocalyptic...)revision of Dismal River.

Rioch

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2007, 09:07:54 AM »
Let me try to make a simple point to the Troglodyte Axis on this thread.

No one is suggesting that reading books will teach you all you need to know about gca.

The (I would think obvious) point here is that reading books will enhance your appreciation of great gca. However perceptive you think you are.

I have no idea why anyone wouldn't avail himself of that benefit. It's not hard to do. I promise.

Bob

On a personal note, hats off to Mark Pearce for the following sentence:

"I used to "hang out" at a number of wine web fora."

Yes. At last. The correct plural form of "forum."

Mark - Next time you are in ATL, allow me to buy you un coup de rouge.

 

« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 09:14:13 AM by BCrosby »

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2007, 09:42:28 AM »
Just to stir this pot a bit more:

Maybe this is a stupid question but it comes on the heels of a book I was reading last night, On Weathering.  The authors come to the conclusion that weathering makes building design and construction indefinite and see weathering as part of the construction process vs. an antagonistic force.  With natural forces in mind, and with all of the man-made changes added to so many courses over the years to boot, how much of an architect's work is really truly understood through the ground vs. read in a book?  

Glenn Gould used to drive to a secluded place before a live performance and "practice" the pieces in his mind without moving his hands.  What was his understanding of Bach's works?  


Rich Goodale

Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2007, 09:56:57 AM »
Bob

You must be starved in Atlanta for intellectual company if you are seduced by Mark's use of the plural "fora."  If Mark had even thought of switching from the Greek to Latin during our conversations in the Headingley student pubs, one of our pubescent companions might have just tickled him with peacock feathers, as UK Classics students are wont to do.

Rich

Tom Huckaby

Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2007, 10:09:51 AM »
I'm with Rich.  Anyone with any rudimentary Latin knowledge, or an interest in vocabulary, knows proper Latin plurals.

My wife and her gal pals are almunae of Santa Clara.

Rich and some other male pals I have are alumni of Stanford.

My wife's other gal pal is an alumna of San Jose State, and her husband is an alumnus of that fine institution.

Am I making you guys giddy?

 ;D ;D
« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 10:10:31 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2007, 10:38:47 AM »
I'm with Rich.  Anyone with any rudimentary Latin knowledge, or an interest in vocabulary, knows proper Latin plurals.

My wife and her gal pals are almunae of Santa Clara.

Rich and some other male pals I have are alumni of Stanford.

My wife's other gal pal is an alumna of San Jose State, and her husband is an alumnus of that fine institution.

Am I making you guys giddy?

 ;D ;D

Your latin runs circles around mine - circles with huge radii.
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

Tom Huckaby

Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2007, 10:44:20 AM »
Powell:

That's nice of you to say.  It will warm my heart as I enjoy the stew we are making from some octupi we purchased yesterday.

 ;D ;D

I love this stuff.  Sorry for the tangent!


Mark Manuel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are you serious ....... about GCA ?
« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2007, 10:46:45 AM »
Mark,

Hey it happens.  I was nervous asking because you just never know.  It could be worse, a lot worse.  You could have said something like you played Ross' Crystal Downs.  That would have brought the message board crashing down (no pun intended) with the number of posts to correct you.

Mark
The golf ball is like a woman, you have to talk it on the off chance it might listen.