Has anyone played Royal Westmoreland, Barbados?(subtopic: quarries)

[Garland Bayley]

If so, what are your thoughts? Especially about siting greens in quarries as in the picture.

[Jay Flemma]

Is that Pinon Hills?  Possibly number 6 (the old 15th...they switched the nines...)

[Brad Tufts]

Green Monkey?

[Garland Bayley]

Nope, Nope.

[Tom_Doak]

Royal Westmoreland?  The RTJ 2 course on Barbados?

I think it's been mentioned here before, but I haven't seen it myself, so I didn't follow the discussion of it.

[David Stamm]

Is that Fazio's Black Diamond Ranch?

[Garland Bayley]

That's right Tom.

My search back 2 years did not find it.

[Garland Bayley]

bump

[Garland Bayley]

Bobby sited two greens inside what appear to be quarries like the one shown in the picture. What do people think of this practice? I felt it was apropos to discuss after Jeff Bs thread on streamlining had ?Langford? advocating the use of quarries as hazards instead of sand bunkers since the midwest doesn't have linksland.

[Tim Pitner]

I believe Faldo and Lehman may have played a Shells WWofG event here some years back, which Lehman won easily.  I don't remember much about the course (assuming it's the same course), but I do remember Faldo mumbling to himself about the softness of the sand in the bunkers.  

[David Stamm]

I believe Faldo and Lehman may have played a Shells WWofG event here some years back, which Lehman won easily.  I don't remember much about the course (assuming it's the same course), but I do remember Faldo mumbling to himself about the softness of the sand in the bunkers.  

Tim, I think you are right. I also seem to remember the wind just howling!

[Evan_Green]

I believe Faldo and Lehman may have played a Shells WWofG event here some years back, which Lehman won easily.  I don't remember much about the course (assuming it's the same course), but I do remember Faldo mumbling to himself about the softness of the sand in the bunkers.  

My recollection is Faldo shot 79    

Looked like an interesting course- would certainly like to see it in person.

[Pete_Pittock]

Garland,
I searched back seven years without success. I did guess it because the WWG episode was on earlier today. And BTW, nice slaggish touch with the titling of your picture.

[Garland Bayley]

I believe Faldo and Lehman may have played a Shells WWofG event here some years back, which Lehman won easily.  I don't remember much about the course (assuming it's the same course), but I do remember Faldo mumbling to himself about the softness of the sand in the bunkers.  

The WWofG was on yesterday and I caught it in the work out room at work.
The fairway bunkers were completely different sand than the greenside bunkers. It appeared as though they put in fresh bright white sand in the greenside bunkers to "make up" the course for television.

[Garland Bayley]

bump to get the new title up.

[Robert Thompson]

I've played it twice -- and interesting site for golf, with a couple of very cool holes in the quarry and some high vistas that showed off the ocean in the background (the site is a ways from the ocean). It is a very pretty course, and I don't recall all the details regarding strategy and such (it has been five years since I was there). I recall enjoying it -- and noting that the place was full of green monkeys. Interestingly, when I played the Green Monkey (in which Fazio created a quarry -- instead of building in one, like Royal Westmoreland), I didn't see any green monkeys. I think Royal Westmoreland may be the more interesting course of the two. Fazio's site had some significant elevation changes -- especially off the quarry he created, and a neat ravine running through some of the holes on the back nine. There was a lot of bland, dull holes as well.

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks Robert,

So you think siting the greens in the quarries is "cool". How do you think they affect strategy? It seems to me that one would try to get ones ball in position to best approach the green, but that position would not be determined by the quarry. If your drive is poor it would seem the quarry would hinder the recovery shot, thereby being a vertical hazard like trees.

Do you think it is correct to conclude that siting the green in the quarry is aesthetically pleasing, but not optimal strategic use?

[Phil McDade]

Garland:

I had missed this thread, and am picking it up now (upon reading the "agenda" thread) because it mentions two interesting subjects -- quarries and William Langford.

First off, I've always liked the "look" of quarries on golf courses  -- whether it's the rough, grassed-over look like Merion East has on its finishing holes, or the one you pictured. Andy North incorporated some in his design at a generally well-regarded course in Galena, Ill., in the northwest corner of the state.

Your question was specific re. greensites, and I suppose it comes down to each individual site and how the quarry is incorporated into the design of the hole. Your picture makes for a neat-looking green surrounds, but I'm not sure how it fits into the strategic design.

I do like incorporating quarries into the routing of courses that lend themselves to forced carries, or tacking around them. There is a really interesting use of what is thought to be an old quarry on an under-rated course in Scotland called Boat of Garten. It's a 307-yard par 4 with a deep, deep pit sitting at @ the 150-yard mark. Options are: Drive the pit (at least a 200-yard carry); play to the bottom of the pit (mowed at fairway length) for a blind, 110-yard pitch; or play short of the pit and treat the hole as something of a 7-iron/7-iron hole. Quirky (Doak didn't like it in his Confidential Guide), but I thought it pretty cool.

As for Langford, I read the thread on "streamlining" and took from those comments that Langford perhaps tried to emulate the feel -- if not the exact look -- of quarries with some of his deep, deep bunkering, particularly around greens. To be short and left, e.g., on the par 3 4th hole at Lawsonia, and end up in a Langford/Moreau bunker, is to feel like one is in a quarry, I suppose.

[Garland Bayley]

The Boat of Garden hole sounds interesting. If the far edge of the quarry is near the limit of ones drive, does the risk of carrying it become greater than playing to a location in the quarry from which one knows one can escape?

Is there room to add multiple tees to take advantage of this risk reward?

[Robert Thompson]

Thanks Robert,

So you think siting the greens in the quarries is "cool". How do you think they affect strategy? It seems to me that one would try to get ones ball in position to best approach the green, but that position would not be determined by the quarry. If your drive is poor it would seem the quarry would hinder the recovery shot, thereby being a vertical hazard like trees.

Do you think it is correct to conclude that siting the green in the quarry is aesthetically pleasing, but not optimal strategic use?

I wasn't trying to be trite. By "cool" I meant the aesthetics of the hole, with the green situated within the quarry walls, was very interesting looking. I haven't played Black Diamond, but it struck me that Westmoreland's holes were more confined to small areas that jutted into the quarry. I suspect that puts more of a premium on placing your tee shots in specific areas that allow you to approach the green from the right angle, and it was certainly possible to bounce an errant shot off the quarry wall. I recall this being quite a factor on a few holes on the course....

[Garland Bayley]

Robert,

I understood "cool" perfectly. I agree the quarries provide wonderful aesthetics, I was wondering about the strategic strength of the usage at Westmoreland. The hole pictured in the quarry also has bunkering around the green. I guess that gives a first order of strategy, while simply positioning to hit into the quarry would be a lower (less demanding) order of strategy. That's interesting as I had only thought of the quarry being an obstacle like a tree before.

[Garland Bayley]

This uses the quarry for aesthetics. Why not build a hole with the green on top and widening the fairway to also run up the side and around to reach it. Could it be possible to make it so one can reach it in two by playing the bottom portion of the fairway, but require three to reach playing the upper portion of the fairway?

[Garland Bayley]

bump for new title.

[Phil McDade]

Garland:

I like the idea of a par 5 quarry hole with a green perched on top, requiring either a jumbo 2nd or layup near the base, with a (presumably) blindish 3rd to the green. Something like that was pictured in a recent thread about lesser-known Maxwell courses, where a large rock outcropping served a similar purposes. (My good friend RJ Daley I think posted the picture, or called attention to it, and didn't seem to care for it that much, but from what I could tell from the picture, it looked like a pretty neat hole with some interesting strategic choices.)

The 15th at Boat of Garten is the par 4 I referenced, and it's a pretty tight site in general. Moving the tee too far back would result in taking a dip in the River Spey, which runs alongside the edge of the course. When I played it several years ago, the very deep pit (the rumoured quarry) was mown at fairway length, but the banks leading into and out of the pit were kept at traditional rough length (and this is a course deep in the Scottish Highlands, so it's not linksy firm-and-fast; the rough is tough to get out of). The pitch shot from the bottom/middle of the pit is only about 110 yards, but it's completely blind (although you can see the greensite and flag position when approaching the pit from the fairway). The risk in going for the far fairway -- carrying the quarry pit -- is that if you're short, your ball is unlikely to end up at the bottom of the pit, but instead on the far side of the slope leading out of the pit, leading to: a lie in the rough, a very awkward uphill stance, and (depending on how down the slope the ball descends) a blind or semi-blind pitch. Par from that position would be a good score, with bogey a definite possibility. Carrying the quarry, however, leads to a simple pitch of 65-90 yards, to a green with no bunkers and very little going on around the greensite, i.e., a real birdie opportunity.

To me, position A is carrying the quarry followed by a simple pitch. If you can't pull that off, position B is either the bottom of the pit, or playing short of the pit and leaving a shot of 135-150 yards -- one is shorter and blind, the other longer and readily apparent, and it just depends on your comfort level. The worst position is the shot that falls slightly short of position A (the far slope leading out of the pit) -- which to me makes it a very good risk/reward hole, because the greatest risk is very close to the greatest reward, and the safe options are pretty obvious and don't require a great deal of skill to accomplish.

[Tom_Doak]

Phil:

I thought the hole at Boat of Garten was strange, but not a bad hole.  The options off the tee are fine.  You just failed to mention that the first-time golfer can't see into the quarry (or across to the far side, as I recall) from the tee because the tee shot is a bit uphill and narrow.  On my one round there I hit an iron from the tee "for safety" only to walk 150 yards forward and discover it wasn't the safe play!