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JakaB

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2002, 03:10:17 PM »
Was it Scratch Nathan that said "My only excuse is that I only get one bad lie at Pasatiempo."   Scratch may have to wake up to the sad fact that perfect shots do not end up behind trees...that great swings disconnected from a clear mind are the foddle of talented fools...That great time proven architecture fools no one..misleads few...and rewards the enlightened...but don't fret el'scratcharino the purity of your game should make even the most mundane layout a treat.  Its good to be scratch.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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DJ Kinney

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2002, 03:33:45 PM »
Caves is a wonderful course plus the atmosphere is as good as it gets. Second best course in Maryland, ahead of Congressional and behind Bulle Rock. Overrated? Check out Baltimore CC Five Farms - only in the top 100 due to the usual politics.
Quote
Caves Valley,(Along with many other Fazio's) and Atlantic Golf Club
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #77 on: August 07, 2002, 04:56:27 PM »
Scratch Nathan,

Spanish Bay, under rated ??????

I don't want to get off on a rant here, BUT,
RAY CHARLES could have designed a better course on that site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Justin_Zook

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2002, 04:57:36 PM »
Caves Valley.  Or maybe the bombardment of striped rough, fairways, greens, collars, approaches, and whatever else could be striped at the Senior Open made it look worse than it really was.  Seems over-rated to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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We make a living by what we get...we make a life by what we give.

urrici

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #79 on: August 07, 2002, 05:45:34 PM »
agree that caves valley looked "artificial" on tv.  it is a well designed challenging golf course however.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #80 on: August 07, 2002, 07:32:46 PM »
One thing is clear,Spanish Bay is not overrated on this site ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2002, 03:28:43 AM »
Scratch Nathan:

Have you ever actually played a real links course in Scotland?  If you have, you would never make this statement.  Superior conditioning of a real links course has NOTHING to do with lush greenness and overwatering.  Therefore, your statement is an absolute falsity.
>Spanish Bay is another course that deserves more
>respect ..., superior conditioning.


On this part we agree:
>I think the grossest examples of overrated courses are PGA
>National (what a factory golf experience!), Doral is another
>assembly line of soulless golf
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2002, 07:14:49 AM »
Whenever I am in the vicinity, I play Pasatiempo (perhaps 15 times)  Great variety, great greens, strategic choices which change with the wind.  The housing is a little close but this course is not overrated.  Similarly, Southern Dunes is a marvelous change from the typical cut and fill Florida courses.  Imaginative green complexes, superb bunkering and a chance to use the ground game.  It may not be as difficult as Bay Hill but it is a lot more interesting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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moman55

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2002, 07:33:11 AM »
In NC I think that CCNC and Grandfather are the two most overrated. Both feature superior conditioning on very mundane courses. Nothing except the setting is memorable at Grandfather, and nothing is memorable at CCNC. They unfortunately were built in the "age of darkness" of golf architecture.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Andy Hodson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2002, 08:42:32 AM »
moman

Grandfather overrated?  I have to take exception here. Played it numerous times and think it still is one of the best I have played. Demanding with the tee shot. Very demanding with the irons due to the undulations in the greens and their speed. Great holes are #3,#4,#5 (one of the absolute best par 3s I have played) #8, #9, #11,#12, #16.

And no offense but mundane would be about the last word I would use to describe Grandfather. And it helps that the views are spectacular. Especially looking back from #4 green, #16 tee. Doesn't get much better than that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2002, 09:43:28 AM »
Nick, I was surprised that it took so long for Victoria National to pop up!!

I still don't get the love affair with VN.  Someon in another post was discussing shot options and I really don't remember having many options there!!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David - Houston

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2002, 07:03:44 PM »
The one hole wonder, Kittansett in Marion, Mass.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #87 on: August 09, 2002, 07:29:44 PM »
Here's one that hasn't been mentioned yet - NCR.  What's so great about this course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jon_Edwards

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2002, 07:23:49 AM »
Most overrated: Congressional Blue ( I worked at the 1997 US Open) and Princeville Prince Course--the views are spectacular but the golf is quite ordinary.

Underrated: Kittansett

Also, i am scheduled to play Atlantic later this summer...why does everyone think it is so overrated?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
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Tim Weiman

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #89 on: August 12, 2002, 07:31:27 AM »
Scratch Nathan:

Can you share with us why you don't like "wildly uneven lies" as a desgn concept?  What makes flat lies more interesting or better, in your view?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jon_Edwards

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #90 on: August 12, 2002, 11:09:58 AM »
David-Houston


Im intrigued as to why you refer to Kittansett as "the one hole wonder"...i assume you are refering to the third hole. You dont like the rest of the course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike Hendren

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #91 on: August 12, 2002, 11:39:44 AM »
I enjoyed Shoal Creek immensely, but was slightly disappointed.  I was surprised by the extent to which the green complexes were manufactured (notably the 4th, 8th, 10th and  18th) and the fairways were not (Nicklaus, the minimalist!). The watery risk/reward design of three of the four par fives was highly touted during major tournament time, but I liked the waterless third (reachable well bunkered double-dogleg) better than the others.  Other highlights were the 14th and 15th - solid back-to-back two shotters bending in opposite directions rewarding a well placed tee ball on opposites corners of the respective doglegs.  

Overall the course screams late 70's like a Donna Summers disco tune, both of which I like.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scratch_Nathan

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #92 on: August 14, 2002, 12:37:05 PM »
Wow, Paul.  That's pretty condescending.  And no, I haven't played a "real links course in Scotland."  Therefore, I can only evaluate it as "a golf course."  That's something I feel pretty capable of doing.  While I may have appreciated the fine conditioning of Spanish Bay, it is not a key reason why I think Spanish Bay is a terrific golf experience.  When I played it at sunrise with a heavy fog a few years ago, I thought it was one of the most special golf experiences available in America without making the 5,000 mile trip (which I will make at some point). I think it has many wonderful, creative strategic golf holes (3, 5, 6, 7, 13, 14) in a great setting.  If it played more like a "real links course" perhaps I'd like it even more.  "falsity?!"  -- Whatever.  I think people like to pick on every little thing at Spanish Bay because they need something to rip on after they discuss Pebble and Cypress.


Have you ever actually played a real links course in Scotland?  If you have, you would never make this statement.  Superior conditioning of a real links course has NOTHING to do with lush greenness and overwatering.  Therefore, your statement is an absolute falsity.
>Spanish Bay is another course that deserves more
>respect ..., superior conditioning.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scratch_Nathan

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2002, 12:43:47 PM »
Pat -

Do you pick on Spanish Bay for the same reasons that I always hear:  environmentally protected areas, a few holes behind the hotel, too lush for a links?

I think that rationale for criticizing Spanish Bay is overrated.  Is there something I'm missing?  Not that I'm prodding your rant or anything.

I thought Spanish Bay was a completely unique and terrific American golf experience.  Many strategic and wonderful holes (3, 5, 6, 13, 14) and a great atmosphere for golf.  

What would you have done differently?

Scratch

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scratch_Nathan

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2002, 12:45:31 PM »
That's for sure.  Care to weigh in?

GN


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scratch_Nathan

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2002, 12:50:52 PM »
Tim -
I didn't say flat lies were better or more interesting.  I think somewhere in between wild and flat is just fine.  Variety is essential. I think both extremes make for poor golf.  



Can you share with us why you don't like "wildly uneven lies" as a desgn concept?  What makes flat lies more interesting or better, in your view?
[/quote]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scratch_Nathan

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #96 on: August 14, 2002, 01:11:39 PM »

Jaka -

You're histerical.  "el Scratcherino!"

I'm starting to realize that there are many armchair psychiatrists out there.  Next thing you'll be telling me something about my childhood.  Scratch is simply a BS name I'm using for the purposes of this site.  I thought it might be memorable and I'm a marketing guy.  I'm not a scratch player, but I am a mid-single-digit and I certainly don't think the quality of my game has anything to do with evaluating courses.  I don't make excuses for poor shots off bad lies.  But I do have opinions on golf holes and courses.  A mundane layout isn't a treat even if I shoot 69.  That kind of scoring is a treat, though.  Perhaps my mistake is writing an opinion on Pasatiempo after playing it only once.  I trust my judgement and have played many time-tested architectural works that impressed me the first time as being truly great.  Pasatiempo did not.  I might like it more after "unraveling its little mysteries" over 10 more rounds, but I just feel it's overrated in terms of Top 100 quality.

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scratch_Nathan

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #97 on: August 14, 2002, 01:17:11 PM »
I know it sounds crazy, Tom....but it was a dead straight drive.  Should I be even more pissed?  Anyway, I certainly appreciate the course.  It's a great place and I'd love to play it again.  I'd love to discover more of the whimsy.   Thanks for your comments.  It seems like you really love the place.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scratch_Nathan

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #98 on: August 14, 2002, 01:24:46 PM »

ChrisB -

Thanks for the warning.  I guess sometimes you can voice your opinion and spend the rest of the day defending and attacking.  Opinions are like PVs #10 bunker...everybody's got one.  See the end of this strand.  Toast it is.

SN


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JakaB

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #99 on: August 14, 2002, 01:32:44 PM »
Nathan,

I'm sitting in the bowels of Illinois wearing a Pasatiempo shirt on the day you have set a record for one sided convoes for this site...I hope you find more time to frequent because we need more people with obtuse viewpoints in relation to the norm.   On a specific note what was your opinion of the large bunker complex on 10...it sat in front of the green in a half pipe.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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