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Dave_Miller

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Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2002, 02:45:54 PM »
Underrated/overrated - Is all in one's opinion.  

As they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Also I still say "there are good courses and there may be bad courses but I have never met a golf course I didn't like."

Price may be a large factor in saying a course is overrated.  This could be the case with places such as Pinehurst #2, Pebble, some TPC courses, etc.

Is Merion overrated because I have heard some say holes #7 and #13 would not be considered good holes if they were anywhere else. I DON'T THINK SO. And I think those holes are great also.

Our own opinions will vary greatly on all this

Have never played Augusta but have walked it several times.  Architecturally I feel it is very sound and is a great course.

Cheers,

Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jerry Kluger

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Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2002, 05:46:03 PM »
I have to agree that Torrey Pines South is hardly a memorable experience but for the views of the Pacific.
I don't want to rehash old threads but we could discuss Baltusrol once again which to me is far from worthy of the many USGA events it has hosted.  Surely the clubhouse is magnificent and the finish at 17 and 18 is challenging and interesting but the rest of the course is blah.  To me the best course in the area is Plainfield although they simply do not have the room to hold a men's open.  Being from the Washington area I would love to see them come back to Congressional but set it up the way they did for the Senior Open where they played the par 3 18th as number 10 which made for a fantastic finishing hole.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Sweeney

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2002, 06:57:48 PM »
Shinnecock, in comparison to its neighbor NGLA. As a friend once said, Shinnecock is a great Championship course, but National is special.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2002, 07:07:23 PM »
Adam Clayman:

I never expressed any problem with #13, Spanish Bay's version of the Postage Stamp.  But, #10-12 I could do without and I prefer the Turnberry model of laying out the entire course to be viewed from the hotel rather than routing holes behind the hotel.

I thought you knew that my IQ was much lower than yours, so I still need your help on the position of the hotel, that is if you can lower yourself to explain it......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Lewis

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Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2002, 09:06:57 AM »
Mike Sweeney,

I used to agree with that statement, but after several trips around Shinny, I have it at #2 US.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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schoeller

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2002, 10:11:07 AM »
The Links course at Wild Dunes.  The last two holes get the blood flowing but the rest of it is pretty pedestrian stuff in my opinion.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Kramer

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2002, 11:16:31 AM »
Anthony

Which other Fazio designs are overrated and why?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lapper

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Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2002, 11:56:02 AM »
If GD's list is the standard there are obviously many arguments for holding one course above or below any other outside the top ten-to-twenty. Who's to say? i.e....no way does Oakland Hills merit more weight than Crystal Downs....etc..

Personal over-rated tracks that come to mind are Atlantic GC, the new Bridge at Bridghampton, Congressional, Maroon Creek,Shadow Creek, Muirfield Village, Harbor Town, Milwaukee CC....

Under-rated big time: Kingsbarn, Kingston Heath, Cruden Bay, LACC North, Pac. Dunes, Yale, Hamilton Farm, Fenway,  Donald Trump's ego.....IMO
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

ChipOat

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Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2002, 12:33:53 PM »
Quick replies:

1)  Bay Hill is an excellent layout; as I've never heard it raved about I'm inclined to say it's UNDERrated.

2) Spanish Bay IS disappointing.

3) Shinnecock overrated????  At WORST, it's #2-5 worldwide.  National may be the more appealing golf experience but, as a golf course, you MIGHT overrate Shinnecock only by calling it "world's best".

4) I played Augusta National many years ago "pre-Tiger"; if the course is, in fact, overrated as a result of all the exposure it gets, it's not by much.

As to my vote, I'd have to consult my list of "courses played".  My instincts tell me it will be by RTJ, Sr.

Having said that, the one that jumps to mind is the Prince Course on Kauai (by RTJ, Jr.).  I don't think it's reputation as the best course in Hawaii is anywhere near justified.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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petercollins

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2002, 12:47:39 PM »
I agree with those have placed Torrey Pines South, but I have not played it since the renovations.  The other courses I would put on the list is anything at Pinehurst other than #2.  This opinion is based in large part on the fact you can go down the road a couple of miles and play a gem of a course at Pine Needles for about half the price.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2002, 01:30:42 PM »
Slapper,
What do you find overrated about Harbour Town?  Shadow Creek? Muirfield?  I would like to hear your reasoning.

You use GD 100 as the benchmark, but they do not rank international.  Kingsbarns and Pacific Dunes both debuted in the top 50 world by Golf, you think they are underrated?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2002, 01:32:36 PM »
Amongst courses I've played....

overrated:  Mauna Kea, Old North State

underrated:  Tobacco Road (one of the most dichotomous courses out there, opinion-wise, and I'm on the positive side)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2002, 01:37:36 PM »
Chip:  just for the record, though I am one of those who prefers NGLA to Shinnecock and would rank it higher (for a variety of reasons), I still would never call Shinnecock over-rated unless yes, as you say, someone calls it best in the world.  It belongs in top 10 US at the very, very least.  Just because it's next-door neighbor is superior doesn't change that!

 ;)

Just having fun, saw your comment on #1 holes thread and wanted to have something you and I could DISagree on!

TH

ps - all this being said, in the next few days I shall complete my rating survey for each of NGLA and Shinn. and it will be interesting which really comes out as superior based on the criteria we follow... I expect it will still be NGLA for me but we'll see.... they're both gonna get very high marks, that's for sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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brad_miller

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Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2002, 02:11:49 PM »
Just further reason to ignore GD ratings :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2002, 02:17:15 PM »
Brad - but wait, one of the criteria is indeed "resistance to scoring"... how is NGLA gonna compete there??? You and Chip might indeed get the answer you like after all...

Nahhh.  Just as you suspect of GD, I'll go ahead and jury-rig "ambience" to make up for this.

TH:

ps:  if Ron W. ever sees this:  I AM JUST KIDDING!!!  Having fun with the GW "brethren."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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brad_miller

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Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2002, 02:22:46 PM »
Anyone that loves both has got it right, both are elite and in my top 10 as to where I'd like to play on a given day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2002, 02:26:03 PM »
Agreed 100%, Brad.  I trust you saw that above in my message to Chip, I did mean that as well.  Now as for one over the other, well.... vive l'difference!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bob_Gold

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2002, 02:31:56 PM »
I'm also curious to know what the previous poster found over-rated about Harbor Town.  I really enjoyed the course.  The whole experience was positive.  A beautiful challenge.
Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lapper

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Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2002, 02:44:07 PM »
Quote
Slapper,
What do you find overrated about Harbour Town?  Shadow Creek? Muirfield?  I would like to hear your reasoning.

You use GD 100 as the benchmark, but they do not rank international.  Kingsbarns and Pacific Dunes both debuted in the top 50 world by Golf, you think they are underrated?


Ben,

Fair enough.
 Each of my "over" picks strikes me as having great, mediocre, and questionable characterisitics. The great ones and the under-rated have little that is mediocre and near nothing questionable.
Harbor Town is clearly special and historic, making the most of a flat property. The original course looks like it much more challenging ( I played with a local who has seen/lived thru the green expansions and fairway widenings) and has been changed purely to accomodate the cash flow drivers. The condition was less than stellar when I played it and left there feeling the short holes were great, but the rest of the course, save 18, mediocre.
Having played Shadow Creek over 6X, I loved it when it opened and now no longer feel it it near worthy of its position. Simply put, so many great courses have been built since then...other than a few of the backside holes, and 1-2 of the front....it won't stand the test of time well enough to hold that lofty perch.
Muirfield Village just doesn't feel better than say Bethpage, Bandon Dunes, or LACC North, etc.. granted MV's conditioning (save for this year's debacle) is superb and its routing is excellent. The front side is decidedly weaker, save the 8th & 9th., than the back and I really feel a course so highly rated should have better balance. I belong to a Nicklaus track and am familiar with his work and agree that MV is among his greatest efforts. I.M.O. he is severely over-rated as a course designer.

P. Dunes belongs in the US top twenty and the world's 25 (almost there already). Kingsbarn belong's among that as well...both are spectacular treatments of spectacular properties...with negligable, if any flaws.

Just my opinion....always given with several grains of thought! :D


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jeff_Banchero

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2002, 02:45:04 PM »
A word about a course in the West, the far West.  The Experience at Koele on the island of Lanai is overrated, somewhat like its designer, Greg Norman.  The front nine is cramped and damp; the "signature hole" is gimmicky, with a tee box several hundred feet above the green; and the back nine, which isn't integrated with the front nine in either design elements or flora is unmemorable.  The view on the back nine includes several trophy houses.  I'm not sure the people who play the course care, since the Lodge at Koele is otherwise one of of the great resorts in the Islands, if not the world.  If you're on Maui and thinking about a ferry ride to Lanai to play golf, play the Challenge, which is on the coast near the ferry stop (designed by Nicklaus, Inc.) or stay in Maui and play Plantation again.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2002, 05:40:57 PM »
Slapper,

Is it possible that some of the new courses you feel very positive about, may suffer the same fate, with time, that Shadow Creek did  ??

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ian

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2002, 06:11:47 PM »
Pebble Beach, the course is very good, but I'll never call it great. Why?
1-3 are average holes
6 is a blind and confusing second shot
8 is a lousy tee shot
12 does nothing for me personally
13, 15, 17 are average holes.

Compare other great courses, they don't have as many weak or average courses. Pebble has great moments, but I struggle to call it great.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2002, 06:16:15 PM »
Ian:

#17 at Pebble - an average hole? :-[  Why do you say that? ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

archie

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2002, 06:25:15 PM »
8) ;) :D

How about the whole group at Doral, especially the Blue Monster!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lapper

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Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2002, 06:53:22 PM »
Patrick,

A fair question indeed.

It is possible, yet relatively inconceivable that conditions could deteriorate at places like Pac. & Bandon Dunes.After all, the great depression and the subsequent World Wars caused several golf courses to disappear and set many great course years behind in evolution and stability.
If that does become the case, I will guarantee my vote to the first Democrat who allocates billions of our tax $$ to Tom Doak and C & C (and even some $ to Fazio...gotta help everyone out). Can you image the routing through the Redwoods, the marshy carries at Cape Canaveral, and shot values over the remaining 1,000,000 acres of the Sand Hills.

JUST KIDDING....I am pro-conservation for the most part.

The good news to take away is the fact that Mike Keiser and the St. Andrews trustees are not sell/buy/sell traders who flip assets every decade or so to make their legacies. These types of very special, and very young places are in good hands for now and will only appreciate over age. None were created with pure avarice in mind.

My humble prediction is that several of the newer private clubs will fall down on their high heels and end up far from the mark they sought to set


One that won't......Friar's Head....the Manolo Blanick/1982 Bordeaux of the bunch! :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith
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