[David Stamm]

Just wanted to share these pics with everyone. Hope you enjoy them.


In 1962, William Bell, jr was hired to build a course for the city on land that was donated by the Soule family that were locals to the area. In the early 2000's, heavy rains wiped out the course. Gil was hired to redo the course while he was repairing Rustic Canyon that was damaged by the same rains. The routing is more or less the same, but there's where the similarities end. Gil and Jim have redone all the greens and bunkers and the course is much better for it. I'm starting with the 5th because I didn't have sufficient light until then and didn't want to do a disservice to the previous holes. I'm also including pics from the yardage book to give some perspective to the hole that I otherwise might not have been able to convey. Enjoy!. This will be a 2 part thread so reserve judgement until after the 18th.


The 5th


The tee shot.



A closer view. The bunker on the right decieves the player's vision. Are there really 2? Do I thread it between them?







Now the play is in plain view and the fantastic green is presented.



A closer view...



A look back...



The 6th. Wonderful risk/reward short par 4.






A closer view...




Close to the green...




The green itself...



The 7th



The tee shot



and the approach




The homage to Bell's bunker style in full effect...




The green. Tightly mown areas are a theme throughout and remind one of RC.



A look back...




The mighty 8th. A real monster!




The tee shot...




A closer view...



The approach over the San Antonio Creek. The contours of the green and the surrounds provide the main defense.




A look back...




The 9th.



The tee shot....




A closer view...




A look back...




The 10th. Wonderful view of the property from here and a wonderful hole as well.




The tee shot...




A closer view...




A look back...




The 11th.




The tee shot. Once again over the creek.




After finding the fw....




A look back...




The rest to follow...........

[David Stamm]

The wonderful short par 3 12th.




A view from slightly to the left of the tee...



The sun breaking through.....




A closer view of Gil and Jim's handy work....




A look back...




The 13th.




A view from afar....




A look back revealing the hog's back. If on the wrong side, 3 or 4 putts are almost assured....




The awesome 14th.




The tee shot...




The fw reveals some wonderful mounds and hollows....



The approach. The excitement of the unknown......What's on the other side???




All is then revealed. A wonderful punchbowl green....








The very difficult and great par 3 15th. Gil and Jim use Bell sr's right hand bunker placement strategy to great effect to fool the players depth perception. This was an effect that Bell and Thomas had used time and time again on their courses and it's wonderfully used here.




The tee shot...




A closer view....




Papa Bell would be proud!!!




The green. Awesome contours....




A look back...




The 16th.




Does one challenge the bunkers on the left?



The bunker that must be flown if the aggresive line is taken....




If not, the view. It looks almost absurdly easy. I love how Gil and Jim did not try to do too much and left the uncertainty of the approach, much like the 14th, as the defense for the safe line of play.



The green revealed....




Wonderful contours....




The 17th




The tee shot. Great fw movement......




The approach. The bunkers are perfectly placed.....




The green....




The 18th. Some have said that it does not have enough "bite" for a finisher. While that may be true, neither does Pasatiempo or Garden City in the tradtional sense and yet they are none the worse for it. This hole is a wonderful hole in it's own right and would probably be more respected if it came earlier in the round. Nevertheless, I love how Gil and Jim did not try to do something here that the land would not support in an effort to come up with something "more". I love the hole and it's somewhat in the same vein as the 10th at Riviera but in reverse.




The tee shot...




A closer view. Does one take it over the bunkers, or play to the right?



The view if the safe route is taken.....



The view just short of the cross bunkers...



A final look and the bunker work of Gil Hanse and Jim Wagner and their homage to Bell's bunker style.....




The view if the bunkers are safely carried...




A look back and some of the best contours of any green on the course. Like so many of the others here, a joy to play.






I played here for the first time in June and could not understand why it was not talked about more. I can only conclude because not many are aware of the quality of work Gil and Jim have performed here. DO NOT MISS THIS COURSE! It's a more complete test that it's more illustrious neighbor and would make a perfect course to team up with Ojai Valley Inn, a mile and half away, or with Rustic Canyon 30-40 minutes away. Either way, the course is wonderful in it's own right and is worth the time to play. Hanse and his crew are to be commended for their efforts here. I unabashedly love it!

[Michael Dugger]

I'd play there in a heartbeat.

thx for the picts, David, you really get around.

props my friend

[David Stamm]

I'd play there in a heartbeat.

thx for the picts, David, you really get around.

props my friend

Thanks Michael. I don't get around as much as my friend and hero Jon "Frequent Flyer" Spaulding, however. You know I'm just jealous pards!

[Tom Huckaby]

This does look like a darn fine golf course.

I had played it many years ago... but I haven't as it looks now, post-Hanse.  Seems as if I need to add another course I truly need to get to!

Great stuff David - many thanks for posting.

As for why this gets little talk, I think you're right, few have seen it.  And I think that is because it's in an awkward area... most would either go to Rustic or Ojai or continue northward.  

But that may change now....

TH

[rjsimper]

How are the bunkers holding up maintenance-wise?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

David, thanks for the pictures with the scorecard.  You have done a fine job of displaying the course.
A couple of things.
Remember the bunkers are an attempt to copy William P. Bell bunkers (Ojai, Riviera, Bel-Air, etc.) not the son, William F. Bell.
Ryan, the kikiyu has grown in wonderfully and the edges are unique.  Much stronger than the sandy edges of Rustic Canyon.
Unfortunately, a couple of more things.  The golfers have complained about the 14th, and the management company, understanding little of quality golf strategy, has already turned the 14th into a par 5.  So now it will be a wedge into the blind green that was built to receive long low shots.  New tee to open soon.  Next they are going to tear down the front right edge of the entrance to the 17th, attempting to lose the redan feature of the shot.  And finally, they are going to fill in part of the cross bunker on the par 5 4th.  Play it fast, two of So Cal's most unique holes and one of So Cal's best cross bunkers are about to be lost.
The course is not promoted at all, thus it hasn't received much recognitiion.  Furthermore, the golfers with whom I speak don't understand why holes need to be so different.  They actually want and expect everything to be the same.  They don't hope for mystery and excitement.  I am not sure what they get out of the game.

[George_Williams]

Shack-
I agree- the bunkering looks cool, but also thought of the confusion with Big Billy & Little Billy.  I don't think Little Billy ever did this type of bunkers, did he?  Also, if the management co. (CP?) doesn't savvy this strategy think, which I agree with you on that, then why did they go to all the trouble & expense to use Gil?  Wasn't Richard Bermudez available?  Maybe they can get him to implement the changes you mentioned.

[David Stamm]

Lynn and George,

   Thanks for the compliments. I believe I stated that Bell jr originally designed the course, but the Bell bunker style was an homage to Bell sr, hence the referrence I made to Papa Bell on the 15th picture. I agree, Bell jr would've never have done bunkers like this. Bell sr's bunkers were a thing of beauty and are one of a kind. I urge those that haven't seen this course in person to see it before the course experiences it's first heavy rain, whenever that may be. This must've been what his would've looked like back in the day, based on the photo's.


Lynn, this makes me sad and angry that these changes that you mentioned are going to take place. TN mentioned something like this to me on Saturday. What is wrong with people? Where is the sense of adventure? If the bunkers are too tough, then don't hit in there!!!! Mindless golf is all most can handle it seems. Here is the bunker that Lynn mentions on number 4 that will be filled in. What a pity. Shame on the complainers!

[Ryan Farrow]

When did this course open for play? These proposed changes are rattling me. People absolutely love Rustic, why would this place be any different?

[David Stamm]

Ryan, it opened in 2005. It was explained to me by a local while playing Ojai Valley that the complaints are coming from the old timers who don't hit it very long. They were used to the pushover it used to be and want the course easier. The course is really not tough at all if played smartly from the right tee's. What's ironic is that the changes wouldn't really help their scores anyway. Using their brain would. Like alot of good courses, thinking is what leads to success, which is exactly what Gil and Jim tried to do here. I'm quite sure that they were aware of the demographics that they had to appease and there is no reason why a average or below average player, young or old, can't get around this course and have fun. The guy I played with said that another complanit was that the bunkers were too deep. They are hazards! What do they want? Sandboxes?

[Pete Lavallee]

David,

Thanks for the detailed photo essay, well done. I played here in Aug. and truely enjoyed the experience. Although much of the work has some resemblence to Rustic Canyon, the extended bent grass collars around the greens for example, the course is wide open and has a big scale so Gil decided to build big, deep bunkers. I feel they fit inperfectly with the site. However on average they are 3 times deeper than anything at RC; I can see why Seniors would have a hard time both climbing in and out and extracting their ball.

When we played we asked a maintenance worker how the members liked the changes. He said most of the members hated the bunkers, usually taking several shots just to get out. He also indicated that the staff didn't particularly enjoy the added maintenance either. We teed off at 11:00 on a warm Friday in Aug. and only saw the cart girl and let a single play through. I guess you just can't please all of the people all of the time.

[David Stamm]

David,

Thanks for the detailed photo essay, well done. I played here in Aug. and truely enjoyed the experience. Although much of the work has some resemblence to Rustic Canyon, the extended bent grass collars around the greens for example, the course is wide open and has a big scale so Gil decided to build big, deep bunkers. I feel they fit inperfectly with the site. However on average they are 3 times deeper than anything at RC; I can see why Seniors would have a hard time both climbing in and out and extracting their ball.

When we played we asked a maintenance worker how the members liked the changes. He said most of the members hated the bunkers, usually taking several shots just to get out. He also indicated that the staff didn't particularly enjoy the added maintenance either. We teed off at 11:00 on a warm Friday in Aug. and only saw the cart girl and let a single play through. I guess you just can't please all of the people all of the time.

Pete, I agree with your assesment of the scale of the property. The bunkers are a perfect fit. All the bunkers have a shallow end that makes getting in and out for the most part easy. The faces are steep, but one can always play sideways. I know, I'm turning into a curmudgeon!

I guess this process is giving us some insight into the erosion of the GA courses. Members complain, or in this case, frequent visitors, and greenskeeping crews don't want to put forth the effort of maintaining such intricate work. You are right, you'll never please everyone, but I wish people would appreciate something special when they have it. I would love to have a course like this in my hometown and have it as my home course. It kills me to see the indifference to it.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

David, I feel your pain.  I too thought sand traps were hazards to be avoided and there could be a penalty if one lands there.  However the excitement of the recovery shot is there if you can coax a senior to open the face of his iron!  If the sand pro can drive in and out, I don't know why a senior cannot walk in and out of the bunkers.  Yes, the course before was easy and straight forward, now it is tougher.  I believe a few new senior tees need to be built on some par 4's but I didn't realize golfers had reached the entitlement era, I thought that was for juniors.  The seniors club has lost some members because they don't like their new scores.
George W.
CP used Gil and Jim because in the end, by doing the work themselves, they end up being cheaper than bringing in a construction firm.

[Robert_Ball]

Great pictures and descriptions Dave, thank you for posting.  After reading Lynn's disappointing comments I'm going to have to shuffle my plans for this weekend and get up there.

Does anyone know the rationale behind switching the nines?  The new 2nd (formerly 17 in reverse) finishes near the clubhouse and looks like it would've made a good risk/reward par 5 finisher, similar to #18 at Wilshire.

Robert

[Jed Peters]

I played this course a couple of months ago. It was truly a pleasure.

I felt the course was VERY easy site unseen, but VERY fun.

There were some great memorable holes on the course:

--Second shot into 1 with tee shot up right side and right pin.
--Number 3, blind front right pin.
--Number 6-8 were great holes
--10-17 are awesome holes.

I thought there were issues with the following:

1. Couldn't run shots into 14 (was too wet in the middle of summer?)
2. 2nd shot into 17 was kinda dumb (and I had 125 coming in) and green too severe if pin was on right side
3. 18 was 4 wood, flip wedge. Lame for a finisher. But what else were they going to do? Pin was in one of the feeder hollows they had to build to challenge a player, and I got it into the hollow...and birdie.

[David Stamm]

Great pictures and descriptions Dave, thank you for posting.  After reading Lynn's disappointing comments I'm going to have to shuffle my plans for this weekend and get up there.

Does anyone know the rationale behind switching the nines?  The new 2nd (formerly 17 in reverse) finishes near the clubhouse and looks like it would've made a good risk/reward par 5 finisher, similar to #18 at Wilshire.

Robert

Robert, I don't know why they switched the nines. Here's the yardage book descriptions accompanied by some very poor photo's. As I mentioned earlier, don't judge the holes by the photo's, the light was near non existent.





A look back towards the tee and the clubhouse




The 2nd



The tee shot




Showing the small creek on the right side of the hole.



View of the green with said creek cutting across. Wonderful green site.




A look back




The 4th




The tee shot




The view after clearing the bunker on the right side that Lynn had mentioned that may be filled in. Another great green site and one of the most interesting greens on the course.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Jed you are right...........for some reason the apron on 14, even in the summer, doesn't dry out and is too soft.  I assume some french drains could alleviate the problem.
For me 18 is also anti-climatic.  As for the 17th, the green needs some contour adjustment and it will be fine.  Eliminating the redan blind second shot will in my opinion take out much of the enjoyment of playing the hole.
As for the reversal of the course, during construction I was told that the idea was to get the holes, where there is traffic noise, out of the way, and then move to the back where it is quiet (except for the dogs).  I think in a year or two they will reverse it as the current number one and two would make for good finishing holes.  The current number two is just a good medium par 4 for today's bombers, but an interesting hole for the other 90% of us.  Jim Wagoner built some great bunkers on this hole was well as most of the course.

[David Stamm]

So Lynn, present 3 would then be #10? I think this might be a better sequence, although 3 is a poor hole and the worst of the course. Present number 2 would be a fine finisher. Present 18, while not an ideal finisher, is still a fun hole IMHO, and would be better off as the 9th.


   

[Lynn_Shackelford]

David, yes that would be correct.

George, my mind went blank the other day.  The County of Ventura paid for all restoration after the flooding.  The management group supervised it and thus made money for the supervision and put in nothing financially.

[Jed Peters]

So Lynn, present 3 would then be #10? I think this might be a better sequence, although 3 is a poor hole and the worst of the course. Present number 2 would be a fine finisher. Present 18, while not an ideal finisher, is still a fun hole IMHO, and would be better off as the 9th.

2 for me was poor drive, 4 wood onto green....I think you play it as a par 5 for regular play, par 4 for Ventura County tournaments !

I think that current 1, 2 would be AWESOME finishers, and current number ten would ROCK as an opening hole.

As for current number 3....I liked the front right pin from the back tees we were playing...it was fun. Pick a line, hit it, then RUN to the front of the tee box.

[Scott Weersing]

Soule Park is much harder since the redesign because of the great bunkers and greens. The 14th hole is really a 4.5 par hole. If you hit a good drive to the right, then you can get to the green in two. If you hit a drive to the left, then there is an oak tree you have to hit over.

The 10th hole used to be the 1st hole but they moved the green back towards the creek with the redesign. The course has a better routing with the redesign because the back nine is much more challenging, beginning with hole no. 15.

I miss the course as I moved away in August. But it is third best links course in the county, behind Rustic Canyon and Olivas Links.

[Patrick Kiser]

David,

Definitely a big thanks for sharing.


Lynn,

I was about to say I have a new La Purisima south of Lompoc.  Probably even better.

And those green fees...  Can't beat those with a stick.

Can someone invite these seniors to move to So. FL where it's flatter than flat and the bunkers aren't bunkers?  Or the Villages near Ocala?  Something?

Anyone in the SF area up for a road trip to this "hidden gem" before it's too late, let me know.  I'm in.

Wish I had known about this one sooner.

David, I feel your pain.  I too thought sand traps were hazards to be avoided and there could be a penalty if one lands there.  However the excitement of the recovery shot is there if you can coax a senior to open the face of his iron!  If the sand pro can drive in and out, I don't know why a senior cannot walk in and out of the bunkers.  Yes, the course before was easy and straight forward, now it is tougher.  I believe a few new senior tees need to be built on some par 4's but I didn't realize golfers had reached the entitlement era, I thought that was for juniors.  The seniors club has lost some members because they don't like their new scores.
George W.
CP used Gil and Jim because in the end, by doing the work themselves, they end up being cheaper than bringing in a construction firm.

[Kalen Braley]

David,

This is really good stuff.  I really like the look of the bunkers and the strategic options on many of the holes.

Patrick,

I'd love to go down, but I'm Utah...a bit far for me.  

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