News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


wsmorrison

Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« on: October 05, 2007, 09:23:07 PM »
In Scott Macpherson's excellent book, "St. Andrews The Evolution of the Old Course," there are drawings of plans by Joshua Crane to revise the first hole at The Old Course.  Although Macpherson mentions they are found in the January 1934 edition of Golf Illustrated, I could not find them in that edition.  Crane wanted to reroute Swilcan Burn, reorient the green and add a rear bunker.  Here are Crane's drawings of the course as he found it and as he would have liked to alter it for additional strategy.  What do you think?  Bob Crosby, did Crane have other suggestions?  Do you know which edition these drawings are found?

As it is:



Crane's proposed revision:


Mike_Cirba

Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2007, 09:29:00 PM »
It's sacrilege on Crane's part, but it's probably an improvement if one can get past the capital offense of Joshua's suggestions.  ;D

Of course, I still wouldn't do it simply because sometimes the whole idea of "improvements" is still a very slippery slope on some courses that really should be preserved for historical factors.

wsmorrison

Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2007, 09:32:21 PM »
The only improvement I can discern is that it rewards play closer to the OB right so that the burn doesn't come into play as much.  Is that the added strategy he was looking for?  A tee shot placement risk/reward?

I prefer the way it has been; where the burn is close to the landing area from all approach angles.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 09:33:56 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2007, 09:51:04 PM »
I don’t see improvement in the suggested hole.  I certainly don’t see the right tee shot as advantageous.  The burn is in play for anything less than the perfect second.  Hit it thin or push it (for a lefty  ;)) and you’re wet.  Maybe I’m missing something.  Or maybe this just illustrates why some things just should not be changed.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 09:52:11 PM by Powell Arms »
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2007, 11:35:33 PM »
The first hole at TOC is absolutely perfect... why on earth try to change it?


I am reminded of a good friend, Simon Hobday, with whom I played a couple of rounds when he was a very, very young man at the Lusaka Golf Club in Northern Rhodesia. Even as a youngster he was a superb ball striker but an indifferent putter.

Years later, when on the nascent Euoropean Tour, he was due to play in the Open at St. Andrews. His putting woes led him to see an hypnotherapist . The latter gentleman told him that he was the worlds best putter, any missed putt was because of imperfections in the green, noises from butterflies in an adjacent meadow or even an unfortunate change in the wind direction across the green, but never, ever, his fault.

On the opening day of he Open I called him for a progress report. he said, "Bob, I laced a perfect three iron down the first, hit a superb wedge to twelve feet and ....four putted."


The first hole needs no changes.


Bob

Gib_Papazian

Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2007, 11:57:39 PM »
Actually, as long as we are modernizing, the Eden green is far too steep to accommodate modern green speeds, so I suggest we flatten it and move it back about 100 yards into the middle of the estuary.

What a smashing and exciting hole that would make, don't you think?

I was going to suggest filling in the Quarry at Merion but didn't want to be accused of heresy.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2007, 12:16:52 AM »
Wasn't the 18th substantially changed by OTM?  And the 17th by Allan Robertson?  Therefore 18 was only around 50 years old at the time these changes to #1 were proposed - it may seem like sacrilege know but at the time changes to TOC were not unusual.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2007, 12:36:01 AM »
Wayne -

I think that Crane published in the London Golf Illustrated proposed revisions to each hole of TOC in 1934. I say "I think" because I have not been able to access the issues. It's been frustrating. Back issues of the London GI are hard to find in US libraries. I've looked.

A couple articles in the US GI at the time talk about Crane being in St Andrews "measuring" TOC for changes he wanted to make. His London GI articles were probably the fruit of those labors.

What is a bit odd are the captions at the bottom of the drawings (they are cut-off in your copies) where Crane talks about improving the "strategy" of the 1st hole. At least in the 1920's Crane didn't talk much about "strategies". I'm not sure if he is using the word in the same way that MacK, Simpson, Behr and all used it. It will require access to those issues to figure that out.

I was shocked to discover the other day that Crane published a book or a pamphlet (I'm not sure which) in 1930 that I had not heard of before. It is called  "New Golf Not Old." I've only found one library that references it and that library is unfortunately the British Library in London. The title alone suggests a continuation of his debates with MacK and Behr that lasted through most of the 1920's, off and on. I'm looking forward to seeing it, soon I hope. Know of any cheap seats to London?

Between the London GI, The Field (a British sporting magazine) and Pacific Coast Golf and Country Club (under that name and several others), there is a lot of stuff still to be uncovered out there. The problem is that very few libraries thought these golf/sports periodicals were worth collecting and preserving. So they are very hard to find now some 80 years on. But I am convinced that some of the best (and most acrimonious) writing on gca during the Golden Age is buried in those volumes. Some may be gone forever, however. Even the USGA library has shocking gaps in its periodical collections from the Golden Age.

Anyway, I'll keep plugging away.

Bob

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2007, 12:55:32 AM »
Bob Huntley -

I share your deep reservations about changing anything at TOC. It should - absent extraordinary circumstances - never be allowed. For all sorts of reasons.

Nonetheless, as a design experiment Crane's suggested changes are intriguing. I would love to know what he was trying to achieve with them. On their face, Crane's changes to the green and its surrounds ought to tempt players to risk the burn on the far right side of the fw. A temptation that does not now exist.

But to repeat myself, TOC is a sanctus sanctorum on which you don't conduct design experiments.

It needs noting that Crane was a man of remarkable brass. One of his explicit goals was to ween golf from its "Medieval prejudices." He wanted to start that crusade at TOC. So it would have been in character for Crane to propose a complete redo of TOC. (I can't imagine anyone else, then or now, with the both the desire and the guts to do it.)

Love him or hate him, a remarkable guy.

Bob    

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2007, 01:17:10 AM »
Looking at Crane's suggestions, I get a real chuckle, simply because he is literally putting an element of risk-reward into it. The closer to the Swilcan Burn on the left, the more room you had to run it in while still making the golfer challenge the Swilcan, yet the element of dropping into the burn is all there. Also, given the high roll of un-irrigated fairways of the day, what do you think the chances were of bouncing it over the burn and on to the green by a long hitter?.

It's really not a bad hole at all. I want to say more but will withhold my thoughts on pure cowardice alone!

I am however  going to take the Huckaby Road here and agree with Bob at all times! :) Any suggestion to change the Old Course like this at least is pure blasphemy.

Any one suggesting it should burn in the Valley of Hades.....
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 01:17:33 AM by Tommy Naccarato »

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2007, 04:45:19 AM »
In Joshua Crane’s sketch I was surprised to see the reference to a drive of 250 yards! That’s the same distance the USGA are presently using as the Driving Distance for a Scratch Player for rating Golf Courses if I’m not mistaken.

Presumably 250 yards was for a Bobby Jones special with the wind behind on a bone dry surface?

wsmorrison

Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2007, 07:59:16 AM »
Thanks for clearing that up, Bob C.  I made friends with a number of members of the golfing society of Marleybone Cricket Club.  Perhaps they, or my friend David Normoyle, at Oxford working on his Ph.D., would do the periodical research for you.  We should talk.  I'll try to reach you over this weekend.  Have a great one!

I admire Crane's determination to improve golf and not bowing to the sacrosanct.  While we think of the Old Course, Pine Valley, Merion, NGLA, Pinehurst #2 and others as treasures of golf architecture, the fact is they were constantly reworked.  In the case of Merion, NGLA and Pinehurst, they were reworked by the original architects.  But it is important to remove our present day biases and consider the suggestion in its time and place.  There was a great debate going on in golf.  Thankfully Bob Crosby and others are researching it.  I think, while it may be wrong to mess with TOC, it is fascinating to consider what was being debated and what changes were proposed.  These changes give a clear insight into what Crane was thinking.  That is very valuable.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2007, 08:36:33 AM »
In Joshua Crane’s sketch I was surprised to see the reference to a drive of 250 yards! That’s the same distance the USGA are presently using as the Driving Distance for a Scratch Player for rating Golf Courses if I’m not mistaken.

Presumably 250 yards was for a Bobby Jones special with the wind behind on a bone dry surface?


If you're serious, the answer is that under those conditions Jones hit WAY farther than 250 yards. Given that he was often using smaller, heavier balls that were tightly wound, 300 yards was not out of the question.

Perhaps not common, but certainly not all that rare.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Michael_Stachowicz

Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2007, 04:11:53 PM »
What do you all know about Crane?  Joshua Crane was a founding member here at Dedham and we have an annual tournament in his name, yet not many know about him.  A quick google search conformed that we were are talking about the same guy.  Every year I put together a little history for the participants, and I am learning more and more every year.  You all are talking about him like everyone should know him, so I am curious to learn more.  Thanks.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2007, 04:27:54 PM »
What I really find distasteful is the way the Swilcan has been enlarged at the front of the green to what......make a pond ?

 ???

wsmorrison

Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2007, 04:56:55 PM »
Michael,

IM Bob Crosby.  He is researching Joshua Crane like no other.  Also, go to the USGA library website and use their search engine.  You'll find a lot of articles written by him and about him.  He was fascinating and controversial.   Some of his scientific analysis and rating of golf courses are rather strange but interesting.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 04:58:05 PM by Wayne Morrison »

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2007, 05:58:56 PM »
I have never been to TOC, but I think any alterations to the course would be silly.  But it sparks my curiosity to ponder how a current architect would layout the land today.  Would we be pleasantly surprised with a minimalist design or would someone add a plethora of artificial characteristics?

Say TOC was designed last year.  How would we look at the course?  Would we admire it?  Would we argue over the famed road hole?  Would Mr. Crane's revision plan take just as much heat?  Would we pay $250 to play the course without the esteemed history?


If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2007, 06:42:11 PM »
What do you all know about Crane?  Joshua Crane was a founding member here at Dedham and we have an annual tournament in his name, yet not many know about him.  A quick google search conformed that we were are talking about the same guy.  Every year I put together a little history for the participants, and I am learning more and more every year.  You all are talking about him like everyone should know him, so I am curious to learn more.  Thanks.

Michael -

Yes, its the same Crane. He was a lifelong member at Dedham. I think there is still a Crane Cup tournament there every year? No?

Dedham used to have a polo facility. (Does it still?) My guess is that it was for the polo that Crane helped organize the club. His interest in golf came later. Crane was a world class polo player. In fact he was very successful in every sport he tried and he seemed to have tried almost all of them.

Is Kootchie Owen still at Dedham? We were on the same college golf team for a couple of years.

Bob

Peter Pallotta

Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2007, 08:05:39 PM »
I wouldn't want the 177 yd shot from the left side of the fairway into Crane's green, with his bunker on the line of play ready to catch something long, or a long iron that came in too low and skipped through. A more difficult hole, maybe a better one, but I'm not sure. The idea doesn't seem to come from his 'scientific' period. I could think about this all day, even just in terms of what I prefer.

Peter    

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2007, 08:14:40 PM »
As Tommy points out, it is ironic that the supposedly penal man of architecture actually designed a more strategic hole than the current 1st.  I think Crane's design is good except for the rear bunker.  I can understand why the bunker is there - for the guy who wants to hit away with lack of control down the left, but I wonder if it would be possible in dry summer conditions to hold a ball on that line.  I don't mind the shallow target as the penalty and having to recover back toward the water form short grass is enough.  Besides, it only serves to take driver out of the players' hands.  I would rather the player be enticed into possibly using driver and take on the risk.  Leaving the bunker there tips the balance of risk/reward too much toward risk.  

Y'all have to remember that when Crane made his "proposals" (which never had a hope in hell of being carried out) many were concerned about length.  C Wood hit a drive 430 yards on the 5th during the '33 Open.  Crane was probably envisioning the day when the first could be driven so perhaps the burn should be widened to combat dry, hard ground where the ball may take long leaps.  The Swilcan Burn was widened around this time anyway - probably because it overflowed.  The design of Crane's burn certainly is more enticing for a guy to have a go.  The way the burn is now (and I think it was re-routed to get this shape) the drive is more penal and less enticing for many to bother taking driver.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 08:17:40 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael_Stachowicz

Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2007, 08:23:38 PM »
What do you all know about Crane?  Joshua Crane was a founding member here at Dedham and we have an annual tournament in his name, yet not many know about him.  A quick google search conformed that we were are talking about the same guy.  Every year I put together a little history for the participants, and I am learning more and more every year.  You all are talking about him like everyone should know him, so I am curious to learn more.  Thanks.

Michael -

Yes, its the same Crane. He was a lifelong member at Dedham. I think there is still a Crane Cup tournament there every year? No?

Dedham used to have a polo facility. (Does it still?) My guess is that it was for the polo that Crane helped organize the club. His interest in golf came later. Crane was a world class polo player. In fact he was very successful in every sport he tried and he seemed to have tried almost all of them.

Is Kootchie Owen still at Dedham? We were on the same college golf team for a couple of years.

Bob

Bob,

No polo anymore since the early 90's.  Yes we still have the Crane Bowl every year, although the format has changed.  Kootch (he must have shortened it) is still a member.

This link will take you to all I have on Crane, which I am sure you have already.  If you have any corrections or anything you think I should add to my history paper on him, let me know.

http://newenglandgreenkeeper.com/Interview.aspx

The articles you are looking for would be at the bottom right of the page.

I am sorry if this causes a hijack of a thread, but I am very excited about this.  I never realized, nor have my members, how big a deal he was.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2007, 11:42:17 PM »
As Tommy points out, it is ironic that the supposedly penal man of architecture actually designed a more strategic hole than the current 1st.  I think Crane's design is good except for the rear bunker.  I can understand why the bunker is there - for the guy who wants to hit away with lack of control down the left, but I wonder if it would be possible in dry summer conditions to hold a ball on that line.  I don't mind the shallow target as the penalty and having to recover back toward the water form short grass is enough.  Besides, it only serves to take driver out of the players' hands.  I would rather the player be enticed into possibly using driver and take on the risk.  Leaving the bunker there tips the balance of risk/reward too much toward risk.  

Y'all have to remember that when Crane made his "proposals" (which never had a hope in hell of being carried out) many were concerned about length.  C Wood hit a drive 430 yards on the 5th during the '33 Open.  Crane was probably envisioning the day when the first could be driven so perhaps the burn should be widened to combat dry, hard ground where the ball may take long leaps.  The Swilcan Burn was widened around this time anyway - probably because it overflowed.  The design of Crane's burn certainly is more enticing for a guy to have a go.  The way the burn is now (and I think it was re-routed to get this shape) the drive is more penal and less enticing for many to bother taking driver.  

Ciao

The real shocker for TOC was Jones' sub-par winning score in the Open in '27. There was panic all around that TOC had had lost its teeth.

Part of the panic was due to the fact that Crane, just two years before, had said that TOC was the weakest of the Open rota courses. To which the reaction of the golf establishment was that Crane was full of it.

And then Jones' score in '27 pulled everyone up short. Even Jones himself was concerned, though his reaction was not to "fix" TOC, but to fix the ball. Bottom line is that, though Jones disagreed with almost everything Crane stood for, he gave Crane a great deal of credibility with his sub-par win in '27 at TOC.

Bob  
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 11:53:49 PM by BCrosby »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2007, 11:51:18 PM »
" I never realized, nor have my members, how big a deal [Crane] was."

Michael -

There are about twelve people today who know very much about Joshua Crane. No, probably less. And though some of them (including me) think he said some interesting things and think that he had an impact on how we think about gca, even today, he is a big deal to only a very limited number of nutcakes.

So be careful when you bring up his name. People will look at you funny and start moving towards the door.  :)

Bob

TEPaul

Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2007, 10:27:45 AM »
It seems to me that the debate that evolved in the mid and late 1920s that we're referring to between Joshua Crane on the one hand and the likes of Mackenzie/Behr et al on the other hand is sometimes miscontrued to some extent by us and may even have been somewhat at cross-purposes by even them back then.

The first thing to do to understand it all, in my opinion, is to identify, define and explain the philosophies they were proposing and supporting and the only real way to understand that is to first identify, explain and understand the words and terms they used back then and what each  really them meant by them.

If we do that I think we can see that their debate was not exactly as black and white as we may think it was and it also may be that, at least the Joshua Crane side was actually proposing, to some extent and in some ways, the inclusion and development in golf achitecture of what we have come to think of and call "strategic" architecture.

(In a way, it seems to me that the Crane vs Behr/Mackenzie debate over apparent "strategic" vs "penal" architecture may've become a casualty of what many of the good threads on here become a casualty of----eg the participants, for whatever reasons, tend to get personal and somewhat insulting with one another despite protestations to the contrary, and as a consequence of that both they and others tend to misconstrue things, including the original underlying subject).  ;)

In the end we may even find that in some ways it was just the manner in which Crane went about proposing "scientific" or even "strategic" architecture that upset his counterparts in the debate (who we ironically call "the strategic" set vs Crane's "penal" set).

What was Crane proposing:

1. Firstly, his own mathematic formulae for ranking golf holes and golf architecture as to quality.

2. The minimization of "luck" in architecture and golf. He proposed this through his recommendations in how to produce a form of "graduated penalty" as well as how to remove to some extent the prevalent "bad breaks" that he felt some courses and types of architecture produced (he cited the odd break that determined the outcome in the Hilton match at Apawamis as an example).

3. Crane felt that any golf course, particularly such as the very old GB ones (such as TOC) could be improved by applying to them a far more "scientific" method of golf architecture. (The word "scientific" architecture---and sometimes its virtual synonym "modern" architecture was prevalently used during that time by a lot of architects and writers including Tillinghast, Trevor, Taylor, A. Linde Fowler etc).

4. It is true that Crane may've been proposing his theories more from the perspective of the good player or even the championship player but even that is not particularly certain---eg he did mention that architecture should certainly not concentrate on penalizing less accomplished players in various ways.

On the other side of the debate were the likes of Behr, Mackenzie, Hunter, perhaps Thomas, Macdonald and Bobby Jones et al.

And what were they proposing or taking Crane to task for?

1. Essentially for attempting to reduce the worth or quality or particularly the analysis of golf architecture and particularly some golf courses to mathematical formulae. The were saying that it was not worthwhile to attempt to reduce the value of a course or its architecture to some "yardstick" analysis (a mathematical or even scientific formula).

2. That the old fashioned and traditional fact or even charm of luck born of randomness or even rawness should not be removed from golf or even tampered with. This kind of challenge to the existence of luck in old golf was probably under risk, at least in their minds, by the application of such things as various forms of "graduated penalty" architecture.

But the odd thing for us to consider today is that some of the proposed theories and philosophies of those who suggested the benefits of "scientific" or "modern" architecture really were, in so many ways, the very same things we think of as "strategic" architecture and which Crane's opposition probably thought of as "strategic" architecture.

Crane was not a supporter of trees on courses generally, at least not in a way that excessively affected play. He was not a proponent of excessive OB, not really a proponent of excessive WHs.

But more importantly he was not a proponent of either cross bunkering or cross hazards perpindicularly across fairways which was the OLD "penal" architecture and he was not a proponent of hazards and bunkers and such on both sides of straight holes that had become the newer form of penal architecture.

Crane was very much a proponent of the diagonal angle in golf and architecture and his favorite feature was the so-called "double diagonal". Crane did not seem to mind such things in architecture as a bunker in the middle of a fairway that became known as Behr's "Line of Charm".

In many ways those architectural features are and were a staple of "strategic" architecture or perhaps even its evolved form in what eventually became known as RTJ's "Heroic" architecture (perhaps best described as some form of the melding of "strategic" architectural principles with a more severe form of incremental single shot penalty).

So what was this debate all about really?

It seems like it was about a lot of things----some understood and fleshed out better than others regarding the opposing sides' positions or proposals.

But mostly it seems it was about defending tradition and traditional courses against certain forms of innovativeness and redesign----and the nub of the issue centered on the most traditonal of all, TOC. And even in the mind and words of one from the new "scientific" side, J.H. Taylor, that was not something that should be done!

Where was Bobby Jones in all this?

Probably in something between a rock and a hard place since his under par victory at TOC added huge fuel to the analysis of TOC as not strong enough any longer to remain as the championship test it had always been assumed to be. Jones was in fact on the Behr/Mackenzie et al "traditionalist" side but it was he, after all, who shot that score at TOC that fueled all the fuss.

Was this simply a debate about strict "penal" architecture on the one side and the more thought provoking "strategic" architecture on the other side?

I don't think so, or at least not in all the ways we think of that basic comparative subject.

And what about the golf ball (Haskell) in this entire debate?

In my opinion, that's almost another subject altogether for another time and another discussion because it very seriously evolved into the larger debate and discussion of "standardization" and these guys from both sides were of varying minds no matter which side of the Crane vs Behr debate they'd been on.

Should this mysterious Crane vs Behr debate (sometimes referred to by us as the debate of "penal" vs "strategic" architecture) be revisited today?

I don't think there's any question it should be. This is the type of subject that underlies a lot of what we talk about on this website. But the Crane/Behr debate was not, and is not, like a lot of what we talk about on here, all that easily categorized into simple blacks and whites.



« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 10:56:51 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Joshua Crane proposed a revision of 1st at TOC
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2007, 11:03:07 AM »
Wayne:

I think it was a very good thing that you posted this thread with Crane's drawing of how to improve the 1st hole at TOC.

This kind of thing probably encompasses and somewhat explains what that entire thing back then between Crane and the so-called "scientific" architects and thinkers on the one hand and Behr/Mackenzie et al on the other side was about.

It's pretty hard to miss or deny that Crane's drawing for an improved 1st hole at TOC was more strategic than it had ever been or even is today but the point of the "anti-Crane" side is one just does not suggest such things with TOC for a variety of good reasons!   ;)

This very thing is probably a lot of what much of the dynamic on this website is about and always has been----something one might call the dynamic on here between the "innovators" or "improvers" vs the traditionalists or so-called "purists".

The point of the "purists", perhaps most often and best represented by Tom MacWood, or even Doak and C&C, is that although it is probably more than possible to improve any hole or course, at least in theory, it's just that some of them have reached that point where they should now, and must now, be completely left alone architecturally!

It is because it is considered, at this point, that they have in both large and small ways and for a number of reasons passed that all important "test of time" and for that reason they should be considered as "The UNTOUCHABLES".

Personally, I guess I agree with that, as difficult as it sometimes seems to be to do.  ;)

To me, problems and unproducive and misleading debates are perpetuated on here when some of those "purists" try to convince the "improvers" that a hole designed like TOC's 1st is in some ways more strategic than Crane's proposed improvement.

There's no question in my mind it is not.

But the point is----that is not the point of not touching it today or ever.

 

« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 11:23:26 AM by TEPaul »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back