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paul cowley

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I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« on: October 05, 2007, 03:38:29 PM »
I think designing good quirk has to be one of the toughest challenges in design. Some of the best quirk wasn't even intentionally designed to begin with......how do you go about designing something that you want to be good, but do it unintentially?

Think about it.

I played Wiltwyck CC outside of Kingston yesterday. Its an old, squeezed in, Trent Jones course from the 60's....quirky narrow, quirky blind....just bad quirky enough to never make me want to play there again.

I then drove home to the Mohonk for the night and got out to look at their little 110 year old nine hole mini mountain course squeezed onto a saddle of the Shawangunks...and I just smiled and chuckled at the funky elements all around....200 something yd par fours, funky hand built tees and green sites and on and on.....smirky quirk....and peaceful.

I would like to play it someday....but I would just as soon just sit on it in different places and try to figure things out.
Not even anything necessarily relating to golf.

Quirk is a lot like trying to determine good art or what constitutes porno....you know it when you see it.

I think its really hard to build good guirk.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 03:48:05 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2007, 03:43:45 PM »
I think its really hard to build good guirk.

Yes, good "guirk" is hard to build.   ;)

paul cowley

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2007, 03:49:43 PM »
Craig....its even hard to spell. :)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 03:56:40 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Norbert P

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2007, 04:01:02 PM »
Noticing quirk, like personal flaws, appreciating it, (or in my case, a plural 'them',) is the most important step. Then the question is... do we restrain or amplify change.  In terms of golf design we have to consider safety, sport, and practicality. (With, I hope, a leaning toward allowing the quirk to be noticed by even those of us less sophisticated in golf architecture nomenclature.)

 "I am less than the song that I'm singing
 but I'm more than I thought I could be..." Hoyt Axton
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

paul cowley

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2007, 04:13:36 PM »
Slag...."In terms of golf design we have to consider safety, sport, and practicality".....quirk can't even show up for that race.


Maybe we ought to just give examples of good quirk instead of trying to define it....its late in the week and I'm getting a headache.....but a wee cure is on the next hours horizon.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 04:25:49 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Peter Pallotta

Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2007, 04:22:01 PM »
"How do you go about designing something that you want to be good, but do it unintentially?"

Paul, that's a really neat question. I hope you'll provide more thoughts on your process in that regard.

I wonder what combination of naiveté and/or necessity makes the folk art of old seem so authentic today, and whether the same can be said for folk art produced now, in a more self-conscious time.

Or is just age that does it, giving the work of the past an aura of authority or rightness. Is it like that line in the movie Chinatown: "Of course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough."

And then there's something I read once about the Navajo Indians and the beautiful blankets they weaved. They used to purposefully weave a mistake into the pattern "to let the Devil out".  I'm not sure what that means/why they did it: maybe as a check on pride, maybe as a nod to the imperfections inherent in all life....

Hope you give us more of your thoughts, gca-related or otherwise

Peter

Norbert P

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2007, 04:29:54 PM »
"...safety, sport, and practicality".....quirk can't even show up for that race.


A race implies competition.  At the very least, quirk should be allowed to integrate with safety, sport, and practicality.

 If you want and example, at Pacific Dunes, on the 7th hole, there are a couple of vegetated knobs before the green. In standard design they would be removed, but they were allowed to be, and that has made a big difference in the uniqueness of the hole.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Mark Bourgeois

Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2007, 04:32:22 PM »
Great thread! One advantage you have is the "body of quirk" of all that's come before. You could look at all that to see what works and what doesn't, and possibly come up with a few guiding principles or rules of thumb.

For example, great quirk ought to be:
1. "Found" not made. I like the idea of quirk as representative of "genius loci," ie it's part of the place - more than that, it's part of what makes the place special or unique, be it man made or natural, like a ruin, cemetery, dune structure, etc.
2. Functional not decorative. If it doesn't affect the play of at least some golfers, then that's not quirk, that's decoration.
3. Likely to produce a result that has some bearing on the quality of the golfer's execution. I think many if not most golfers are willing to accept a level of capriciousness or luck, but most will accept less than what many on here will accept. What the right level of quirkiness is in this regard, I have no idea.
4. Fun in the type of plays and / or results it produces. I think this is the reward golfers who like quirk expect in return for capriciousness. For example the 5th hole at Barnbougle demands a shot hit well left of the par 3 green, but a well executed shot is rewarded not simply with a result that puts the ball on the green, but with the pleasure of watching the ball roll up and around a backstop. Or if not fun, then the quirk should offer opportunities of the heroic variety, like a big carry, shot over a precipice, or eye of the needle (Postage Stamp).

Just my dandruff opinion (flaky and off the top of my head), of course...

Paul, have you seen a book called "Britain's Most Extraordinary Holes"?

You'd love it...

Mark

paul cowley

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2007, 04:36:56 PM »
You know Peter....I probably need to define for this discussion that my musing is not about good looking quirky, but instead about good playing quirky.....and for that matter  lets not include good playing archaic quirky, but instead, what defines good playing modern quirky.

I would really be accomplished if I could create it when needed....I'd probably include it on about 2.1 holes per 18.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 07:08:16 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2007, 04:47:25 PM »
Paul:

Where have you seen good MODERN quirk?

I think quirk is something that has to pass the test of time.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2007, 04:49:18 PM »
Mark, good answers towards a definition.

I will try to find the book.

What I really what is to find is a way to tap this elusive element, especially when one has the land, equipment and talented people at his disposal, and the freedom to design.

paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2007, 04:54:16 PM »
Paul:

Where have you seen good MODERN quirk?

I think quirk is something that has to pass the test of time.

Tom....I'm not so positive. I'm thinking on it but have to go.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike Dasher

Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2007, 04:55:36 PM »
Is copied quirk modern quirk?  If so, who is Captain Quirk


Kirk Gill

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2007, 04:59:12 PM »
I can roll with the notion of quirk being best when it is found, and not created intentionally, but making a rule out of it means that quirk will not be a part of any course on a featureless site. In creating music I often look for the "lucky accident" that happens while playing or recording or mixing - but are those kind of accidents to be had when working with bulldozers, shapers, etc? I hope so. I think that any creative process has to be open to the accident that WORKS, that makes things better, or different. Specifically designing for quirk takes a certain kind of talent, or a certain kind of naivete. The latter is unlikely to be found in most gca's.......
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Mark Bourgeois

Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2007, 04:59:18 PM »
Tom Doak

Are you saying your Sitwell Park and 5th greens at Barnbougle are not quirky, or just not any good?

JMorgan

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest..... New
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2007, 05:27:21 PM »
.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 03:36:44 PM by jm »

Eric_Terhorst

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2007, 05:58:05 PM »
What's so hard?  Just put a wall in  :D


Tim Gavrich

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2007, 06:35:26 PM »
Quirk is a lot like trying to determine good art or what constitutes porno....you know it when you see it.

I think its really hard to build good [q]uirk.
It seems to me that the biggest problem is that everyone has a different tolerance level of quirk.  If a hole is in any way "quirky," many golfers (at least, a lot of golfers I've encountered) automatically dismiss it as "stupid" or "gimmicky" or "contrived."  Therefore, we are left with an idea that can't be defined.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Ian Andrew

Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2007, 06:50:15 PM »
Paul,

I don't believe you can design quirk - you can only choose to keep something quirky as part of the design.

Bill Gayne

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2007, 06:58:03 PM »
If you can define "quirk" as a vagary or an unexpected disruption of normal or expected pattern and a return to that pattern.

Than to create quirk requires knowing or creating patterns or expectation and creating the vagary that provides the unexpected interruption.

A possible idea for quirk would be to develop a visual pattern over a series of holes which sets an expectation. Suddenly break the pattern by giving the same visual look but different playing characteristics. Then returning to the pattern.

Bill Gayne

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2007, 07:12:00 PM »
Quirk is a lot like trying to determine good art or what constitutes porno....you know it when you see it.

I think its really hard to build good [q]uirk.
It seems to me that the biggest problem is that everyone has a different tolerance level of quirk.  If a hole is in any way "quirky," many golfers (at least, a lot of golfers I've encountered) automatically dismiss it as "stupid" or "gimmicky" or "contrived."  Therefore, we are left with an idea that can't be defined.

That's generally true because it often runs up the score which is the focus of most golfers.

Bart Bradley

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2007, 07:19:12 PM »
Interesting topic.  When I think of "quirky" that I have enjoyed I think of Prestwick and Lahinch.  When I think of gimmicky, I think of the fake ruins on the Barefoot Love Course in Myrtle Beach.  Is it possible that in a hundred years, people playing the Love course will enjoy the fake ruins and feel part of golf history or will they continue to just find it a silly contrivance.  There is something to what Tom Doak said earlier in this thread.  Time will tell.

Peter Pallotta

Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2007, 07:22:36 PM »
Kirk
I like the music-making analogy, and the happy accidents you're talking about. But I assumed that quirk can't be found, only created, i.e. it can exist in the context of a golf course only because an architect decided to make a quirky feature part of that course. (Or better, what Ian Andrew said.) That's why I was asking about what makes artists at least 'open' to quirk in the first place....but that's not a good way to put it.

Peter  

Tim Gavrich

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2007, 07:26:33 PM »
Interesting topic.  When I think of "quirky" that I have enjoyed I think of Prestwick and Lahinch.  When I think of gimmicky, I think of the fake ruins on the Barefoot Love Course in Myrtle Beach.  Is it possible that in a hundred years, people playing the Love course will enjoy the fake ruins and feel part of golf history or will they continue to just find it a silly contrivance.  There is something to what Tom Doak said earlier in this thread.  Time will tell.
mbb--

I personally can't draw much of a distinction between the ruins at Barefoot-Love and the picture that Eric Terhorst presented a few posts earlier.  If the ledge and ruins at Barefoot are indeed authentic, then what could be the difference between it as an impediment on the 6th at B-L and the wall in Eric's picture, aside from age?

If age is therefore the only difference between "quirk" and "contrivance," then I find that idea preposterous.

In that case, will those who abhor the island green at 17 at TPC at Sawgrass eventually find it delightfully quirky 50 years hence, for the sole reason that the hole is 50 years older?
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Bart Bradley

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Re:I think designing good quirk is one of the toughest.....
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2007, 07:38:45 PM »
Tim:

I agree that there is more than time that separates quirk and contrivance.  But, I also think that whether a particular quirky design is "good" or "bad", may become more evident and definable after time has passed.  I personally think the fake walls at the Love course will always be a contrivance, no matter how old.  But, time does give perspective.  I honestly don't know what people will think of the island green at TPC in 50 years.  Have you played Prestwick in Scotland?  I think most everyone would agree the course is quirky (and for me, interesting and fun)...but I wonder how people would feel about a similar design built in today's world.  I just think time and perspective do allow for better evaluation of quirk as well as other aspects of course design.

Bart

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