great designs on boring pieces of land...

[Joe Bausch]

Now I'll start something not OT.  

I'm curious about courses that people think are on a boring piece of land but came out much better than you thought possible, and conversely, how about some courses on wonderful property that under-perform.

[Ken Moum]

In the great category, you have to figure it's going to be a list of all the "manufactured" courses, starting with Lido and ending with Chambers Bay.

The worst on a nice piece of land? Lake Shawnee Golf Course in Topeka, KS. In talking to Ron Whitten about it, I said, "It's got several holes that should have played the opposite way."

He said, "The whole golf course is backwards."

He is close to right.

Ken

[Scott Szabo]

What about Whistling Straits?  Wasn't that one "created" from basically nothing?

[Jim Franklin]

Shadow Creek. Plain flat desert wasteland turned into Shangri-La.

[Eric Franzen]

Winged Foot West is definitely one of them IMHO.

[Jed Peters]

While not in the category of Shadow of Winged Foot, I'm excited to have the rest of the GCA norcal crew out to Morgan Creek Golf club, as to me, this is a really good design on a VERY boring piece of land.

I also think Stevinson Ranch is a great example of this as well.

[Dan Smoot]

Would you classify the Rustic Canyon site a "great piece of land"?  I am in no way making a comment on the golf course or the surrounding hills but the land itself does not seem very special.

[Paul Stephenson]

If your opinion of links land is negative, then I have quite a few.

Not to highjack this thread, but how many of you think links land is boring?

[ed_getka]

Paul,
   I'm pretty sure that would be zero that find linksland boring.

Two of mine have already been pointed out, Stevinson Ranch and Rustic Canyon. Although the Rustic land seems more special every time I go down there, even I though I still never could have conceived  of a course as brilliant as what Gil, Geoff and  the guys came up with.

Aetna Springs that was  redone by Doak and crew seems like a fairly mundane, typical Northern California meadow with some oaks. Then you get out there and walk the property and notice a little feature here and there and realize that they used every possible feature beautifully. Will this 9-hole course ever show up on a  ranking? I doubt it, but if you appreciate golf architecture I think you would have a delightful day out  there. Tiny greens, diagonal hazards, uphill shots, downhill shots, seasonal creeks, optical illusion bunkering, etc...

I haven't seen Talking Stick yet, but it was apparently another blank canvas that has some pretty good golf on it according to the feedback here over the years.

[Rich Goodale]

Paul

I generally love links golf courses, but some links land is relatively boring.  Hoylake (Royal Liverpool) is a great design on a largely boring piece of land.

[Tony Petersen]

 ;)I have reservations about stating that either Talking Stick North or Talking Stick South are "great" designs, though the work that C & C did on an "absolutely" flat piece of land is pretty remarkable. The North course uses the natural features it was afforded incredibly, with washes and arroyos disguised as bunkers and waste areas... Incredible work, though "great" is a word that I don't use lightly when discussing golf design. Another course that springs to mind is Barona Creek, which I would label a great design. Though not a boring peice of land, bottom line is it's grazing land that can be found by the square miles throughout the Dakotas, Montana, Wyoming, etc. If only the summers were't 3 months long

[PThomas]

Chicago Golf???

[Jay Flemma]

sawgrass.

pinehurst.

[C. Squier]

Chicago Golf???

I'll buy that.  In fact, I'll second the nomination as I can't think of a better course/more boring piece of property combination.  As far as terrain goes, its a farm field.  A blessed farm field at that

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mildenhall

[Gib_Papazian]

My definition of "boring land" does not encompass Rustic Canyon for the most part. Stevinson Ranch was a big zero - deadly dull scrub with nary an anthill - though I have yodeled  praises at Harbottle before.

Talking Stick North is far beyond what I tough possible because it is essentially a low-profile design. Little dirt was moved, it is still dead flat and yet every single hole has compelling interest and strategy.

Carnoustie is the obvious one across the pond - whether you like it or not, that golf course is a design achievement.

But for me, you cannot have this conversation without Chechessee Creek being somewhere near the top of the list.

Shadow Creek belongs in the conversation only with a giant asterisk, because anything is possible with unlimited funds. I think the question is intended to identify courses where crappy raw product was made into a silk purse without major surgery.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Wigler might vomit on his computer, but Art Hills did a great job at Half Moon Bay with a useless mud hill. Yes, it faced the ocean, but the land itself was unusable.

[Rich Goodale]

Gib

There is much more natural movement in the land at Carnoustie than on The Old Course, probably because the land at Carnoustie was mostly natural whereas a lot of the Old Course was manufactured.

[Garland Bayley]

In the great category, you have to figure it's going to be a list of all the "manufactured" courses, starting with Lido and ending with Chambers Bay.
...
Ken

Chambers Bay does not belong on this thread. The 18 holes at Chambers Bay were not built on boring land. The county wanted 27 holes, but RTJ II convinced them there was not enough interesting land for 27 so the southern, boring part, of the land had no golf holes built on it.

However, in part Chambers Bay does belong on this thread as it is a great design.

[Bart Bradley]

I played and really enjoyed the Rawls Course in Lubbock, TX.  The surrounding topography is absolutely flat but the course has quite pleasing terrain and variation.  My member friend says that there was only a few feet of topographical elevation change over the entire property before Tom Doak interceded.  Perhaps he or others will comment on this project.

[Dan Smoot]

I played and really enjoyed the Rawls Course in Lubbock, TX.  The surrounding topography is absolutely flat but the course has quite pleasing terrain and variation.  My member friend says that there was only a few feet of topographical elevation change over the entire property before Tom Doak interceded.  Perhaps he or others will comment on this project.

For years I have traveled through West Texas to visit my in-laws (Amarillo).  The Rawls Course is an unbelievable transformation of land.  I would compare it to Primm in CA/NV and what I imagine Shadow Creek in Vegas to be.  You would not believe you are anywhere within 200 miles of there.  There have been pictures posted here showing an aerial view of the land while it was being moved and before.  

[Tom Yost]

Phoenix has its share of boring pieces of land.  I recently found this description of a golf course and had to smile at the contrast between 1990's golf marketing and the new minimalist movement.

"Over 1.3 million cubic yards of dirt were moved here to create spectacular golf holes with picturesque mountain views, many lakes, and assorted elevation changes of up to 75 feet."

 

Tom

[Andy Silis]

Black Sheep Golf Club in Sugar Grove, Illinois. Brilliant design by David Esler ( 27 holes ). Basically carved out of flat corn fields.

[Ryan Farrow]

Talking Stick North.

I thought rustic was on some pretty decent property. I remember seeing pictures before I went that made the course look flat as a pancake but when you get there it seems like there is some nice movement on the property.

I'll throw Oakmont out there as boring property. Sure there are some nice rolls but the course really only has two big hills and to think how vastly different some of the holes play is really incredible. Holes 1,9,10,11,12. play back and forth over the same large roll yet you could not find 5 more unique holes anywhere.

[Adam_Messix]

I think without question it's Winged Foot West...  Outside of the area of 10, 11, and 18 approach, the property there is very flat and there was nothing manufactured like at Whistling Straits.