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Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Underrated Golden Age Architects
« on: October 04, 2007, 07:06:08 AM »
who do you think doesn't get the recognition they deserve and why?....

i'm reading a fair bit about billy bell at the moment... i don't hear many mentions of his name but he seems likely to have been fully responsible for those george thomas bunkers (never mind all of his own designs)...

apologies if this is an old subject...

Kyle Harris

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2007, 07:11:29 AM »
Willie Park, Jr. would head my list, followed by Alex Findlay.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2007, 07:22:58 AM »
Willie Park, Jr. would head my list, followed by Alex Findlay.

i guess that considering his influence, you could definitely call willie park jr underrated... but perhaps only for his plentiful american work after the first world war... he certainly gets great recognition for his heathland courses

alex findlay i know little about which probably proves your point...

Rich Goodale

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2007, 08:07:13 AM »
Archie Simpson.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2007, 08:09:17 AM »
Willie Park, Jr. would head my list, followed by Alex Findlay.

Willie Park, Jr., Alex Findlay, and Devereux Emmett although the latter two deserve special credit because they both were building non-geometric, inland courses in America a decade before NGLA.

What's more, each built courses into the 1930's, and were both absolutely prolific.

And Thomas Bendelow clearly gets an unfair rap.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 08:14:49 AM by MikeCirba »

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2007, 08:29:22 AM »
Eric Apperly designed two courses that are currently in Australia's top 10 ranked courses.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

wsmorrison

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2007, 08:31:40 AM »
Mike C,

Would you include the nearly unknown (and I guess therefore underrated) J. Franklin Meehan on your list?  He was an above average architect of that era, wouldn't you say?

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2007, 08:36:40 AM »
I'd agree on Bendelow.

Willie Watson.

Early R.B. Harris.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2007, 08:50:33 AM »
Wayne Stiles took the best of Ross and Raynor and mixed it all together to make a better product than either individual.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2007, 08:54:53 AM »
Mike C,

Would you include the nearly unknown (and I guess therefore underrated) J. Franklin Meehan on your list?  He was an above average architect of that era, wouldn't you say?

Wayne,

Meehan is certainly a very interesting architect, and because no one knows of him but us, he's almost certainly underrated, as well.  ;)

His stuff is generally sound, but also a real mixed bag at times.   There are some holes crammed into Ashbourne, for instance, that are curious, and I've heard similar things about Sandy Run.   On the other hand, North Hills is really quite good, as was Brookside in Allentown that I've played recently.

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2007, 09:06:00 AM »
Stiles and Van Kleek in the North East.  I am always amazed, and think of what could be, every time I play @ Spilt Rock in NY.  I also hear that Taconic is no slouch. :)

wsmorrison

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2007, 09:20:07 AM »
Mike,

Did you know that Wilson and Flynn had a hand in a redesign of North Hills?  Colored drawings in the Flynn collection show changes to the existing course that match an old aerial Craig Disher located showing what was planned was done.

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2007, 10:01:23 AM »
dave
totally agree about Split Rock. If the usga would only give them some money. great greens and lots of room for new back tees. they could easily hold a met/ny state open there. played Taconic this summer. lots of fun.

Kyle Harris

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2007, 10:06:02 AM »
Forgot about Stiles and Van Kleek and have only played on of their courses, but it's quite good if a bit beat up these days.

Meehan's work at Sandy Run is appreciable, but definitely not up to it's nearest neighbors. Meehan built some good par 3s in my opinion.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2007, 10:10:42 AM »
Max Behr and Willie Watson.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2007, 10:24:58 AM »
Mike,

Did you know that Wilson and Flynn had a hand in a redesign of North Hills?  Colored drawings in the Flynn collection show changes to the existing course that match an old aerial Craig Disher located showing what was planned was done.

Wayne,

Yes, that's my understanding, as well, I believe from an earlier conversation we had.  

Certainly, I would say the architecture of NH is a bit more refined than other Meehan's I've played.

TEPaul

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2007, 10:36:12 AM »
The ones I'd list may not be underrated exactly but I surely do feel nowhere near enough is known about them and what they did and did so well, as well as what they contributed to the philosophic evolution and direction of golf architecture:

Alison
Behr
Emmet
Findlay, Alex (was he the original Pied Piper of American GCA?)
Fowler
Langford and Moreau
Willie Park, Jr (was he the originator of good INLAND GCA in this world?)
Strong
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 10:38:46 AM by TEPaul »

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2007, 10:44:00 AM »
Hooper Golf Club: Est. 1927 by Wayne Stiles and John Van Kleek in Walpole, NH is a nine holer I just played last weekend.

The beauty of the greens, because they are probably untouched by change, show the great imagination of golf course architecture in this era.

The variety of bunkers and their locations around the greens show the size of the putting surfaces before making the greens smaller over the years.

Hopefully, this course will remain as is, unless they want to take back the original putting ground areas.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2007, 10:55:08 AM »

Unk.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2007, 11:04:53 AM »
Orrin Smith:
Ive only seen a few, but   i am  quite impressed with   his routing skills and green complexes

Langford  & Moreau :
bold and imaginative


Charles Banks:

too often dismissed  as " Mr. template"

Essex County,Whippoorwill and Tamarack are  excellent courses


TEPaul

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2007, 11:05:56 AM »
If we are going to get into the "underated" or the "unsung" from the Golden Age or any time, we probably need to recognize some of those guys who actually put the rubber to the road for some of the great old architects and their courses. What we will perhaps never know because of the lack of material documentation is to what degree they were also "idea" men with architecture for the greats and their courses:

Her's a temp list I'd offer:

From the old days:

Crump's constant sidekick and foreman Jim Govan
Maxwell's constant on-the-ground guys The Wood Bros ("The Forgotten Man")
Wilson and Flynn's early foreman, the heavily imbibing guy who's name I can't recall now. Tell us Wayne.
Ross's Maples family
Ross's foreman Hatch
Thomas's Philly mentor Sam Heebner


Some of the modern guys of the same ilk that I know of:

C&C's "The Boys" (Bradley, Craig, Proctor, Axeland, Duncan--eg just those that I know)
Hanse's Jim Wagner
Forse's Jim Nagel
Doak's guys

Of the latter, if any of you ever get the opportunity to talk to J Urbina do NOT pass it up. That man is a walking innovative education on GCA, particularly greens! I will not forget the day Mayor Ott and I spent 20 minutes or so with Jim U on Maxwell's incredible 9th green at Pine Valley analyzing and discussing it with him. Ott only lived immediately next to that special green for about 37 years and he (and I) were just blown away by how Urbina analysed its detail and essence and explained it all to us. I don't think I'm mistaken when I say Jim mentioned it would not surprise him if Maxwell and his Wood Bros just free floated that beauty by eye and that was that. If that's the case, the likes of the Wood Bros were f...ing green designing and building geniuses, in my opinion. Perhaps the best there ever was.


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2007, 11:16:41 AM »

Wilson and Flynn's early foreman, the heavily imbibing guy who's name I can't recall now. Tell us Wayne.



joe valentine?... i'm not sure you can call him underrated though seeing as he was only associated with merion and there's no indication whether he was involved in the design at all...

TEPaul

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2007, 11:34:26 AM »
Ally:

No, his name was Fred Pickering. We think he may've been related to Flynn by marriage. He was definitely a well known commodity.

And his contributions to Merion et al are not exactly undocumented. We do have some text where contemporaries of that time do give him plenty of credit. His drinking was legend and he got fired at least once but he was apparently too good and they brought him back.

As much as they say Pickering drank he was probably more into "cask" architecture than "flask" architecture.

wsmorrison

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2007, 01:28:30 PM »
Tom,

Go to Mike Malone's office and borrow his dunce cap.  How could you possibly forget to add Tommy Birdsong to your list?  Shame on you   >:(

Fred Pickering was married to Flynn's younger sister.  At the time of their marriage he was 52 and she a mere lass at 18!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 01:29:17 PM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

Re:Underrated Golden Age Architects
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2007, 01:33:27 PM »
" At the time of their marriage he was 52 and she a mere lass at 18!"

Really? If you got something like that going for you God only knows why you'd need to drink so much at night. But maybe Fred only drank in the day because he was in pain. Sleeping with a nubile 18 year old every night can probably do some damage to a 52 year old frame.

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