[Rich Goodale]

Mark

The orientation is (or should be) based on gravity, not sun or any other sort of tranistory thing.  The idea is to keep the water in one place, so flatness is the only criterion.

Rich  "Longtime Runrig Fan" Goodale

[Mark Pearce]

Mark

The orientation is (or should be) based on gravity, not sun or any other sort of tranistory thing.  The idea is to keep the water in one place, so flatness is the only criterion.

Rich  "Longtime Runrig Fan" Goodale

Of course.  I guess this should have been obvious to me as I aquaplaned my trolley through the rivers forming in the furrows at Moortown.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

To return to the 11th hole, the original tee was beside the original 10th green and that teeing ground existed until quite recently. It had been used as a winter tee, but it was deemed to be too dangerous given modern play to the new 10th green. The point about that tee was that you could run the ball in to the green, the green-front bunker was not directly in line. From today's tee there is a compulsory carry over the front bunker, which may be why discussions of whether this hole resmbles a Redan or Gibraltar should be based on play from the old tee.

Now, MacKenzie was no longer a visitor to the club (messy divorce) when the club acquired the land (1929) to build the new 10th green. As you'll see from MacKenzie's map (1910-ish) he suggests that if that new 10th were to be constructed a new 11th hole was to be built. Permission was given for the surface of this hole to be altered in November 1919 although there is no record of whether or not this was done. Nick Leefe, David Crabtree and I spent many hours debating whether the 11th hole was new in 1929/30 or remained the original hole. There is nothing in the club records to help. We examined photographs, walked the ground and tried to decide whether this green was in the same place or not. Looking at Chapman's map and MacKenzie's sketch, the green does not seem to be in the same place in relationship to the 12th tee as it is today. That might imply that the green had, indeed, been moved. But the early photographs of the hole show the bunkers in exactly the same places that they are today, except raised above the level of the green. The green cannot have been moved. And then one day, after wehad gone top press David wandered out to the 11th green and stood in a depression he'd never noticed before - between the current 11th green and the 12th tee. Was this the site of the original 11th green? Fortunately we'd not committed ourselves in the book.

It wasn't unknown, even at Alwoodley, to move greens - the 6th was moved in 1919 or 1920....

I'm so sorry not to have been able to be present, but there we are.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

By the way, I've got a load of pictures of TAGC and would happily copy them to a CD if anyone would like them.

[James Bennett]

Thanks Mark Rowlinson.

Given Mackenzie's comments on his drawing recommending a move of the green to enable a Gibralter type hole, and the similarity in style of the current #11, I have to assume the green has been moved.  It would not make sense to move the green forward (back towards #11 tee) from the current position if a Gibralter hole is desired - there is one there now, so that can't be the original green.

On my next visit, I will endeavour to look at the old site.  If you get the chance, take Tony Muldoon on one of your future investigative visits - he loves this sort of historic, forensic stuff, especially where it involves cross-country trekking!

James B

[Mark Bourgeois]

I was trying to express that the ball kept bouncing higher than my mind must have expected, for I consistently was surprised by bounce. I put this down to the smaller angle of incidence due to the fairway consisting of rigs running perpendicular (or closer to perpendicular than parallel at least) to the vector of the incoming ball and the higher probability of the ball striking a slope facing the golfer than the level ground of a furrow or rig-top or the far-side / transverse slopes.

As to the randomness of bounces similar to a links, that's not at all what I was referencing. That happens, too.  What I was getting at was the way the holes are "framed" into partial blindness off many tees owing to bushes and trees, yes, but also the difficulty of seeing the rigs and furrows (ground-level tees).

All I can say is, the ball bounced higher than I expected (yet continuing roughly on its airborne vector after the first bounce) enough times for me to see a pattern and I haven't felt this sense of disorientation on any other course I've played, linksland included.

I dunno, must be me.

Mark

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark,

You are quite right about the unbelievable bounce at TAGC. On the 3rd I hit an 8 iron from about 170yds looking to bounce it into the green, the first bounce must have been 20ft high and due to the slope the ball ran a good 10yds through the back.

On the 8th I had 165yds from light rough, expecting a slight flyer I hit PW which ended in the middle of the green, as I only carry a PW 120yds there was a good 40yds of bounce and roll. As I recall there was no r&f on the eight approach.

TAGC wasn't even exceptionally dry during our week there so one can only imagine what it must have been like last year.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark, sorry I missed you yesterday. Decided to try WH New...

What did everybody see out there that reminded them of other MacKenzie holes / elements on later courses? Did you connect any dots?

The Gibraltar connection to 11 is a good one!

Here's one I saw, maybe I'm connecting dots that don't exist but anyway:

The 5th reminded me of of the 1st at NSW; both play very similarly. Here's a pic of 1 NSW:


Both are short par 4s with rightward-canted fairways, play from peak to peak across valleys, and guard the green via bunkers short and right that play much larger than their outlines; i.e., the surrounding land slopes toward the bunkers.  The challenge on both holes is two-fold: go as far left as you dare, and go as far as you dare.  The punishments for failure are similar.

The interesting thing is to speculate on what Mac took away or learned from designing Alwoodley, how he might have taken an idea from his original course and changed it, perhaps improved it.

In that light, a few differences between the holes:
1 NSW is driveable by a far greater number of golfers and therefore tantalizes the golfer with the very real prospect of great reward.
5 Alwoodley has the advantage of indigenous flora that nominally are "playable" (heather), encouraging the wayward golfer to hit a stupid / heroic second shot, but Mac used bunkers right of 1 NSW fairway to recreate that type of penalty.  (As to left at NSW, I don't believe that forest originally was there but I can't be bothered to check the club history to see what was there.  But one could imagine long grass, scrub or some such other penalty from which the heroic / stupid shot may be attempted.)
By placing the bunkers on 1 NSW harder against the green, and draping the green on and over the precipice of the hill (severe false front), Mac pushed back -- delayed if you will -- the punishment, enabling the golfer to experience the thrill of driving the green, his ball seemingly having run the entire gauntlet of hazards...only to see the ball retreat back into the Maelstrom bunker. (Any Norse fishermen out there to appreciate that?) The emotional resonance of 1 NSW is higher.

I very much enjoyed both holes!

Did anyone notice anything else out there?

Why is Alwoodley a course worth studying, not simply for intrinsic design elements but as a window into the design philosophies and subsequent courses of Alister MacKenzie?

Mark

[Michael Whitaker]

Mark - I, too, was impressed with the bounce and the effect it had on overall player strategy. On my four plays of #5 I had four nice attempts at hitting the green in two shots. On the first three I TRIED to land the ball short and bounce it onto the green, but it in each case I bounced completely over which resulted in a serious struggle. On my fourth attempt I finally hit the shot short enough to keep the ball on the green. Naturally, as an American golfer I used a lofted club on all four of my attempts. I was impressed with the way Andrew Mitchell (aka the Bailsdon Butcher) played his shot into the 5th green after pitching out of the heather... he used his 7-iron and hit what was basically a long chip shot from 100 yards that scooted up onto the green in fine fashion. This is a shot that Americans NEVER play, but I observed Andrew using this technique several times at Alwoodley.

It was interesting to me to observe how many of the features at Alwoodley could be replicated on courses in the US if designers so desired. Alwoodley was my first true heathland course and I came away wondering why more courses have not been built like this in the states... particularly in areas with more flattish ground. Surely we could simulate the heather and gorse with local vegitation.

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark - The Addington got pretty flooded by 2pm, the morning players got wet but the course was playable, by the time we finished our Board meeting the course was pretty nigh unplayable. Hope you faired better at WH which usually drains better.

The open approaches to the greens at TAGC make the bump and run the ideal shot unless you can put plenty of spin on the ball. By keeping the greens open I guess the doctor was encouraging the links style even in Leeds. Looking at early pictures of ANGC several of the greens were bunkerless possibly allowing different approach options

Mike - I'll have you running the ball in like a local after a couple of trips to the Kent coast. Mind you any more treats of cake and I'll remain unfit to play until the new year!!

[Mark Bourgeois]

Following up on my earlier post, here's another: the short 7th. At 143 yards it is a short iron or even wedge for most players.

Isn't the size of that green enormous for a hole of its length?  Puzzling it out, is the point is to make the hole playable for all and a challenge to the better player? (one of AM's principles?)

For it appears very open from the tee: the flag seems swimming or lost in that ocean of green. Depth perception very difficult; with the flag back on Thursday, I recall that virtually everyone I played with had trouble getting the ball all the way back there.

Hitting to the front of the green invited a putt the likes of which surely were well-considered by Mac: nobody practices putts of that length -- a distance demanding a chip or even pitch on most greens!

One of the startling things for me about the course was the recurrent sense of disorientation, of things not being as they seem.  Not just the blindness but the nature of it -- serving not to obscure in many cases but confuse -- or even the openness behind greens, also elements such as a big green on a short hole.

Mark

PS Rich, thanks for the etymology on "wierd," thou stout gaurdian of the English language!

[Bill_McBride]

It was interesting to me to observe how many of the features at Alwoodley could be replicated on courses in the US if designers so desired. Alwoodley was my first true heathland course and I came away wondering why more courses have not been built like this in the states... particularly in areas with more flattish ground. Surely we could simulate the heather and gorse with local vegitation.

For those who have played Forest Dunes east of Traverse City, there are a handful of holes on the forested side of the course that feature tee shots over heatherish vegetation.  It's a very good, fun course and the highlight to me was not the sandy area but the heathery area.  It reminded me quite a bit of Delamere Forest, Beau Desert and Alwoodley.

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike - I'll have you running the ball in like a local after a couple of trips to the Kent coast. Mind you any more treats of cake and I'll remain unfit to play until the new year!!

I can't wait for the lesson! If I can learn that shot I may have a slight chance with Mr. Mitchell at Buda VI.

As for the cakes... we need to fatten you up for the kill!!!

[Michael Whitaker]

For it appears very open from the tee: the flag seems swimming or lost in that ocean of green. Depth perception very difficult; with the flag back on Thursday, I recall that virtually everyone I played with had trouble getting the ball all the way back there.

Mark B - I found the short flagsticks affected my depth perception... they made shots look longer and the greens larger than reality.

[Jon Wiggett]

Something that I have forgotton to mention about Alwoodley is the maintenance which is very much low imput and f&f. I remember when first playing Alwoodley in the early 80's being told the fairways grew so slowly that they were mown only once a week during the spring, early summer flush (may/june) and otherwise only about once a month.

There are some that maybe would scoff at such figures saying it was not possible but taking into account that heather's biggest problem is not being able to compete against grass invasion did any of you notice that there is heather actually growing on the fairways?

A sure sign of extreme low grass growth rate.

[Mark Pearce]

Jon,

Yes, I saw patches where what looked like divots were growing as heather.  At dinner on the Thursday the club captain confirmed that this was a problem.

[Mark Bourgeois]

That hollow on the left side of 15 green, has anyone seen that feature anywhere else, to that degree?

From reading Mark Rowlinson's top notch history I gather somewhere in the past it ceased to exist, then was returned when the club relaid its greens to USGA spec.

What an amazing green, with that front right slope you have two remarkable features together. Where was the flag located on the Wednesday?

Has anyone played to a back-right hole?

Mark

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

I think all the holes were in the same place Wednesday as Thursday.  15 is really wild.  I'm surprised they don't have drainage problems with that hollow but, as you say, with the slope front right it makes for some astonishing putts.  How you would go about putting to a back left pin from a front right position God only knows.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark

Perhaps when the green was relaid to USGA spec that factored in the decision to return the feature.

Had we played Alwoodley that Friday we might have had our answer!

Mark

[Mark Pearce]

Mark

Perhaps when the green was relaid to USGA spec that factored in the decision to return the feature.

Had we played Alwoodley that Friday we might have had our answer!

Mark

Perhaps it turned into an interesting water hazard internal to the green on Friday?  

[Mark Chaplin]

USGA spec, what is it, does it work everywhere??

Surely our GCA friends design their greens within parameters but in tune with the drainage, soil, weather patterns, etc of the site they are working on.

[Rich Goodale]

 How you would go about putting to a back left pin from a front right position God only knows.

This is why god invented the lob wedge.....

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