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Mike Sweeney

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2007, 10:38:55 AM »

I was responding to Mike Sweeney who said he would have never learned of Sand Hills without the rankings.  I think he is wrong.  

John,

Please show me where I said this in my post? If you think you can take on this Jesuit trained poster during one of your rater Brad bashing tirades then let's make it interesting and bet a round of golf at Pebble Beach over where you can find that I said " I would have never learned of Sand Hills without the rankings."

Take your medication and then go back and read my post!  :o And don't come back on here and give us the Jaka standard "I am a reformed rater basher" crap, just send the money!

John Kavanaugh

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2007, 10:45:29 AM »

I was responding to Mike Sweeney who said he would have never learned of Sand Hills without the rankings.  I think he is wrong.  

John,

Please show me where I said this in my post? If you think you can take on this Jesuit trained poster during one of your rater Brad bashing tirades then let's make it interesting and bet a round of golf at Pebble Beach over where you can find that I said " I would have never learned of Sand Hills without the rankings."

Take your medication and then go back and read my post!  :o And don't come back on here and give us the Jaka standard "I am a reformed rater basher" crap, just send the money!

Mike,

I am already in trouble and at risk at losing my posting privilages because of this thread.  This is it for me and please go back and read where I said these strories are urban legend.  Here is your quote..

Thank goodness some rater for Golf Magazine drove to Mullen, Nebraska to find out about Sand Hills Golf Club. I have obsessed over those list since I was 14 years old. I have had many great trips, friends and laughs because of that guy(s).

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2007, 10:46:55 AM »
Something about a tale, idiot, sound, fury and nothing comes to mind.  

Either that, or something about methinks, protest, much!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike Sweeney

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2007, 11:04:08 AM »

I was responding to Mike Sweeney who said he would have never learned of Sand Hills without the rankings.  I think he is wrong.  

John,

Please show me where I said this in my post? If you think you can take on this Jesuit trained poster during one of your rater Brad bashing tirades then let's make it interesting and bet a round of golf at Pebble Beach over where you can find that I said " I would have never learned of Sand Hills without the rankings."

Take your medication and then go back and read my post!  :o And don't come back on here and give us the Jaka standard "I am a reformed rater basher" crap, just send the money!

Mike,

I am already in trouble and at risk at losing my posting privilages because of this thread.  This is it for me and please go back and read where I said these strories are urban legend.  Here is your quote..

Thank goodness some rater for Golf Magazine drove to Mullen, Nebraska to find out about Sand Hills Golf Club. I have obsessed over those list since I was 14 years old. I have had many great trips, friends and laughs because of that guy(s).

If it has to be me that cuts you loose, so be it!  ;)

When Gene showed up at The Publik House that night, the first words out of my mouth were in reference to Sand Hills. Obviously, I would have found out about Sand Hills that night directly from a member as we are both golf course psychos. Having read the magazine article made me more informed on the subject matter.

Long before there was GCA.com, I had perfected the ability to troll for Top 25 golf clubs, and that rater gave me another tool in my basket of tricks!  :D

Access tricks:

Rule #1 - Complement the member and congratulate them on their recent ranking! 8)

Please make the check out to Surfers Healing, I prefer to start your healing process now!
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 11:05:36 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2007, 11:21:49 AM »
Please make the check out to Surfers Healing, I prefer to start your healing process now!

It can't be mere coincidence that I read this post IMMEDIATELY after watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdbxLk8_C8c

NO METAPHORS INTENDED, I assure you.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 11:29:01 AM by Dan Kelly™ »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike Sweeney

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2007, 12:09:27 PM »
Dan,

I am still waiting for a paypal receipt from Jaka to my friend Izzy at:

http://www.surfershealing.org/

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2007, 12:49:22 PM »



Quote
Does anyone know who was the prophet for Sand Hills in that original Golf Magazine article/list? I owe that guy a beer.
Quote

The first panelist from Golf Magazine to play Sand Hills during pre-opening was Bob McCoy.  He might have gone with a few other people, possibly Doak or Norman Klaparda.  If I remember correctly he raved about it, and said he couldn't wait to go back.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2007, 01:39:47 PM »



Quote
Does anyone know who was the prophet for Sand Hills in that original Golf Magazine article/list? I owe that guy a beer.
Quote

The first panelist from Golf Magazine to play Sand Hills during pre-opening was Bob McCoy.  He might have gone with a few other people, possibly Doak or Norman Klaparda.  If I remember correctly he raved about it, and said he couldn't wait to go back.

Is that the Pine Valley member who played the top 100 in the world in 100 days and said the toughest course for him to get on was.............. :oBethpage Black?
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2007, 04:50:19 PM »
Imagine that, a PV member not having any problems finding reciprocity.  I find that story very believable.  And good for him!  I have a standing vacation day waiting for the PV member wanting to have a little home and away at my place :)

Mike_Cirba

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2007, 05:04:53 PM »
Mike,

Here is a perfect example.  You Mike said yourself that you weaseled your way onto Merion by bumping a guy in Tommy's group.  Should you have been snitched upon and kicked off the panel.  I say no.  Where does a pro draw the line and doesn't everyone agree that he has better things to do.

John,

If you are going to continue to use me to try to further your rater bashing obsession, at least get your facts straight.

I knew that Tommy was coming east.  We had never met in person previously although we had numerous emails, dialogues and phone calls over the years.

However, I had met and was friendly aquaintances with 3 other members of GCA who shall go unnamed, but who are all very fine people and happened to be the prospective members of Tommy's group.

Tommy and I were talking and I knew he was going to play Merion, but I didn't know who he would be playing with at that point or whether there was any room.   Because it had been a course I had walked multiple times, had driven around during countless lunch breaks, and because of other sentimental reasons I asked Tommy if there was any way I could be part of his group and told him that I'd be eternally grateful, which I am.  

Tommy mentioned to one of the three fellows that I was hoping to play with them, and in an incredibly gracious gesture he essentially told Tommy, "I've played Merion numerous times...I'll be happy to drop out and let Mike play."  He then contacted me to tell me the same thing, which was a thoughtful, gentlemanly act.

I did not play Merion as a "rater".   I never contacted anyone from the club or anyone on here as a "rater" to play Merion.

I played Merion as a golfer.

If that's "weaseling" John, then I think you're an extremely troubled man who obviously thinks nothing of unfairly attempting to besmirch the reputation of someone you don't even know.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 11:27:55 PM by MikeCirba »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2007, 01:34:53 AM »
I don't think anybody had written much about Sand Hills before it was included in the limited edition of The Confidential Guide.  That had nothing to do with being a panelist and everything to do with being a friend of Dick Youngscap, Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 01:35:48 AM by Tom_Doak »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2007, 06:27:03 PM »
So after a couple of years of requiring raters to be invited and play with a member (my owner really doesn't care about ratings and I had been beat up by several by several bad experiences), I decided to allow a persisitent rater to play this week.
He requested s foursome and insisted on playing this Saturday
I informed him he could bring one free guest and that he could bring two more at the reduced member's guest rate.(he decided to go twosome)
 I also suggested Thursday or Friday would be better. Despite the fact he's located an hour or less away, he politely insisted this saturday was the only day he would be in the area.
So saturday afternoon he teed off in his twosome.

Of course he requested a cart at our walking only facility(citing age and physical ability restrictions) Due to the limited ,unmarked,and potentially dangerous cart routing we require a caddy when using a cart (which was gratis of course)
After a day of helping himself to free halfway house food and beverage,publicly proclaiming his love for the course, as well as the service of the caddy-he gave the caddy a rate for one bag with no tip.  The asst. caddiemaster politely informed him of our policy that despite the accomodation we made for him by providing him with a free cart, he would still have to pay the caddie for two bags. (caddies have to pay rent even if you talk your way into a cart)
He said "he didn't have that kind've money"
the asst. caddiemaster then informed him he could send it along later and he pulled out some more money, but eventually put it back in his pocket and said that's all he was paying, but that the caddie was a nice young man and had done a great job.

So with all due respect to raters (particularly those from GOLFWEEK and GOLF who have been quite professional), I probably won't be entertaining anymore raters.
At least not any from Golf Digest-which is too bad because I'm sure many are well behaved.
I will be calling this particular rater (in reference to his shortfall) as well as Golf Digest Tuesday.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Michael Christensen

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2007, 06:52:32 PM »
this past post by jeff is very sad.....I think this person should be outed and humiliated for his behavior......this crap needs to stop!  and I don't put much faith a call to the publication will take care of it.


corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2007, 07:12:03 PM »


Jeff

It seems like there were a few warning signs before this guy even set foot on the property.  Is there any reason why you are not giving up his name?

I belong to a club that has no policy (as of now) on "raters' rounds but I suppose we should develop one.  ???

I know a few rater guys and they take their role seriuosly, they know their stuff and they are fun to play with.  I guess I would be making a mistake if I attributed the same ethics and sense of fairness to all their bretheren.

Tell me raters, after comping everything does the club need to get the damn caddie fee in advance?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2007, 07:22:03 PM »
Corey,
I believe the least I can do is give him a chance to send along the money (which came out of my caddiemasters pocket)

Should he choose not comply and/or get huffy, then perhaps a public lynching of his name might be appropriate. ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2007, 07:38:57 PM »
Mike I think that sort of behavier is unacceptable whether by a rater or a guest of any type. The publication ahould be contacted. I hope you guys had fun this weekend. Life was great in Tiger Stadium!!

Pat Brockwell

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2007, 07:56:25 PM »
Here's another story... While we were still under construction at Black Mesa, 2002, this guy comes out on a Sunday afternoon, after everyone is gone, sneaks through the barbed wire fence, and gives himself a tour.  We only found out about it after we saw a review of the Links de Santa Fe in GD.  We found out because the reviewer, Ron Whitten, wrote more about Baxter Spann's next project than the course he was reviewing.  We didn't mind a bit, and we are also always pleased to have raters play, it helps the ratings, duh. The only posers lately have been some shady "Superintendents" spinning stories about how I told them they only had to pay cart fees (which I never do, and BTW I spoke with them at the turn and made them and their wives pay full price) and an occasional jerk claiming entitlement as a golf course employee.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2007, 08:03:16 PM »
George Pazin writes:
This thread should probably be deleted, it's not serving any real purpose beyond rater-bashing (not that there's anything wrong with that...

I love these stories. Please don't stop posting them.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
“He [Anastasio Somoza García] may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch”
 --Franklin D. Roosevelt

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2007, 08:20:12 PM »
Cory,
When you say they "know their stuff"... what is their stuff?
 
I don't know the solution to the problem because as you say and as most say..it is probably a minority....BUT I will say this..from my experience ..when I go to a place to play I don't go with the anticipation of being comped but often it happens and if it does I try to spend more in the shop or in tips than it would cost for the round.  Just last week i was at an ODG course in NC and had two buddies with me.  I went to pay the golf professional and he said no.....I said yes we expect to pay so that we are comfortable returning.....he agreed to let us pay cart fees but we were walking.....one of my buddies say " Oh we are walking"... I took him aside and said...pay the cart fee and when I got him outside I told him to make sure he purchased at least one shirt before leaving.
Comps have become such a stigma that I feel mch better paying than being comped in MOST cases and if you are comped I feel you should at least send something back whether it be a bottle of wine, book or whatever.
The problem as I see it with raters in the "stated" cases it that they approach it with an air that says " we know our stuff" and you sould bow down to us being here.
From personal experience, the guys that really should be comped are the ones that would not even tell you they are on the executive committee or a director of golf somewhere or the supt at ANGC....it is the second assistant and three of his buddies or the "rater" with two different golf shoes and 4 peanut butter sandwiches in his golf bag.....
I still ask.....why rate a golf course????  The raters whose opinions i would respect would be the same ones that would not expect to be comped r if they were would handle it in the appropriate manner....not some dork that stiffs a caddy.....I would value the caddies opinion much more as to the course and the rater.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Andy Troeger

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2007, 09:50:31 PM »
Common courtesy is really not that difficult a concept. Unfortunately there are those in every subset of society, raters included, that can't figure it out.

Hopefully those like Jeff and others that have been burned by bad experiences help the magazines weed out those who do not follow the code of conduct. Golf Digest's is written out in great detail and the fellow in Jeff's example broke most of the rules.

wsmorrison

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2007, 07:56:16 AM »
Private golf courses should not offer free golf or any other perks for rankers.  Rankers should be prohibited from not following club rules.  If accompanied play is all that is allowed guests, rankers must follow that rule.  If unaccompanied play is allowed at a higher fee, that too should be the rule applied to rankers.  The magazines themselves should mandate it and the clubs follow it.  If the ranker can play with a member at a reduced rate available to all member guests, that should be the most a private club ought to provide.  Rankers playing golf with a member is a safeguard against abuse and a well-chosen member adds to the rankers understanding of the golf course in one visit.  Public/resort golf courses can do whatever they like, it is a different story.  

I don't care for sob stories about rankers having to pay money out of their own pocket to do this so-called service, so they should be allowed free golf.  Many feel an overblown sense of entitlement.  That is a bunch of BS.  Pay as you go like the rest of us.  

There shouldn't be private club privileges for any rankers.  I don't base this on a few instances of abusive behavior.  The entire process is fraught with conflicts.  Joshua Crane tried to quantify greatness.  He was an intelligent and fascinating man, but it made no sense then and it does not make sense today.  
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 07:59:42 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2007, 08:08:40 AM »
If members and their guests have to follow the rules, then I totally agree with Wayne that raters shold follow suit. What BS that people want to bring "guests", that is just freeloading with a freeloader! Clubs should supply a suitable member with a knowledge of the history, policies & greenkeeping methods to inform and answer questions.

Yesterday I was showing a couple of honoured guests around and whilst they didn't have time to play, hopefully gave them a little more flavour of the club through one or two historical facts and stories. For me playing with an interesting member always changes my experience when playing a great course.
Cave Nil Vino

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #72 on: October 08, 2007, 09:18:42 AM »
Why are raters allowed to bring guests to a private course?
Integrity in the moment of choice

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2007, 09:19:43 AM »
Why are raters allowed to bring guests to a private course?

So that they'll look more favorably on that course in their review/rating process...


wsmorrison

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #74 on: October 08, 2007, 09:27:12 AM »
I am glad these conflicts are being exposed.  The process is flawed and needs to be fixed if it is retained at all.

Requesting, let alone demanding, that a ranker bring along their buddies on the club's dime is wrong and needs to be immediately addressed by the magazines.