How Far Will You Go???

[THuckaby2]

Todd, very important point. GCA is an obscure minority of the golf world. Most golfers will be on carts and not care or worry about the distance. Don't let the concerns of this group prevent you from maximizing the use of a site just because you're trying to adhere to certain abstract ruules. The best golf courses in the world all violate those rules, anyway.

That's EXACTLY what I was getting at in my post way up above.  If the holes are good, no one is ever gonna care where they are, Todd, except a very tiny but very vocal minority - and even they won't complain too much if the holes are that good.

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

Long distances on famous courses that have cart rides for walkers include:

Kiawah - Ocean.  If you walk, you take a cart to near the 1st tee/9th green, then take the cart to 10th tee, then take it back to clubhouse from 18th green.

Caves Valley - Cart ride from 9 green to 10 tee and 15(?) green to 16 tee (I think).  Even gave rides to Senior Open golfers, I believe.

Sand Hills - All hop in carts to ride the ~mile to 1st tee, then ride back from 18 green.

Hudson National mentioned above.

[THuckaby2]

So Dave, if the holes are great, what's wrong with placating the tiny minority of walkers by adding the shuttle, just as you suggest, no matter how far it is?

To me that solves all problems, again assuming the holes one shuttles to are worth it, which is the assumption from Todd.

And if the walk/shuttle involved gives the sightlines Todd said, well.... seems to me it would be a damn shame NOT to do this, just for the sake of "flow" or to keep walkers happy.

I think you'd agree with this, but your giving 150 yards as the max has me confused.  

TH

[THuckaby2]

Long distances on famous courses that have cart rides for walkers include:
Sand Hills - All hop in carts to ride the ~mile to 1st tee, then ride back from 18 green.

Tough to include Sand Hills in this, Scott.  You're only in a cart because they don't want actual cars going from the lodge to the course... if this is included then every course that has on-site housing not right next to the first tee would have to be.  The course itself is perfectly self-contained and there are no long hikes from green to tee.

BTW, for Todd - obviously the archetype for long walks that are worth it is Cypress Point - 15 green to 16 tee - and the shaping of 16 itself - long walk around from tee to green.  Would the militant walkers have had MacKenzie do this differently?  So as Brad Klein says, go ahead and break the "rules".  The golf holes are what matter.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Todd, Was the reason for the question because you wanted to adhere to some design principle that will be violated with the addition of the new tract?

[J_McKenzie]

Geoffrey Childs:

FYI-  The 18th hole at Ocean Forest was originally supposed to be a Par 5 with the tees located behind #17 green, out on the ocean (you may have noticed the sea wall that was already constructed).  However, the environmentalist would not allow a small wetland, a manmade drainage ditch dug a long time ago, in the landing area to be filled.  Thus, #18 became a Par 4 with the tees moved well forward and away from #17 green to allow for tee shots to carry the wetland.*

It's great that you were able to find a positive in what was a negative for many when the change first had to be made.

*this is the story I heard, but don't hold me to it.

[BCrosby]

Todd -

Shuttles, without the right kind of atmospherics, can be a jarring interruption. The mistake to avoid is the shuttle after no. 5 at Wade Hampton. The cart takes you past the entrance gate, by a maintenance shed, and through a parking lot to the sixth tee.  

Whatever golfing spell you were under is lost.

Bob

[GeoffreyC]

J McKenzie

We thought that a "pebble beach-like" 18th hole might have been in the works for the finishing hole at Ocean Forrest and couldn't think of a reason for that walk at first.  The clubhouse is already quite far from the 18th green so placing the tee behind 17 green and constructing a long par 4 seemed a possibility as well but as you correctly stated there is a wetland issue.

The current walk is both beautiful and a potential place to make a new bet, think about the final hole if a match is close or just enjoy the scenery.  Whether it was planned or not, I think it worked out quite nicely.  

[TAyotte]

As a walker I think the time the walk takes is more important the actual distance (they're probably directly related, but you could always argue uphill vs. downhill, slow walker vs. fast walker, etc.).

Anyway, if it takes so long to walk from a green to the next tee box that the group behind you playing in carts "blows by", then the walk is too long.

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Great points all!  I was 99% sure I wanted to do it already, but since I wrestled with it initially, I thought it would make a nice topic here.

My first thoughts were also Crystal Downs and Cape Breton...nice addition examples thus far.

The sequence of holes will definitely fall in the middle of a nine hole loop, but unsure of which one at this point.

I am not a fan of shuttles, so never thought of this as an option, and don't think it necessary here.  In reality, adding 600 yards total to an entire walking experience is nothing more than the difference in playing a 6700 yard course vs. a 7300 yard course.  I don't think anyone decides whether or not they want to walk based on yardage, really, within this realm of distances, but more on severity of the terrain/walk.  

Re. where it is...don't get all hot and bothered.  It's in Southern California, so check back in 8-10 years, and we should have our grading permit by then!  Also, just so you know, the course that gets built will actually be our 19th revision of this first routing, and there's a fair chance these holes will have been eliminated.  Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but the essence of good design these days in highly scrutinized areas is in how the designer can guide his best design thru the maze of darts and daggers called "approvals and permitting".

[THuckaby2]

I am not a fan of shuttles, so never thought of this as an option, and don't think it necessary here.  In reality, adding 600 yards total to an entire walking experience is nothing more than the difference in playing a 6700 yard course vs. a 7300 yard course.  I don't think anyone decides whether or not they want to walk based on yardage, really, within this realm of distances, but more on severity of the terrain/walk

Don't you love CA, Todd?  

Now re walk/ride decision, I'd say there's so many who just ride NO MATTER WHAT that it's kind of an esoteric point to even consider.  But for those of us who want to walk but are faced with this decision at times, you're correct - overall yardage isn't a factor at all - but I think it comes down to severity of terrain FIRST, green to tee distances SECOND, with each playing into the other... That is, I will happily walk a course with severe terrain if the green to tee distances are short (like your Shadow Lakes, in general), and I will also walk a course with long green to tee distances, if the terrain is flat (like Coyote Creek - Valley course in San Jose); but I will just plain not walk a course that is both severe and has long green to tee distances (like Cinnabar Hills in San Jose) because I have no point to prove and it just isn't worth it.  None of these instances makes me a happy golfer in any case... and f I am in the militant mood or playing competitively I will indeed walk.... but this is how the decision goes.

I think I represent the thinking of the "most of the time walker" pretty well, tiny minority though we are.  At your prospective SoCal course, if it ever gets built, I'd say walking would be doable, shuttle or no.  But the decision would go as per the above.

TH

ps - another thing that effects the decision is sociability with playing partners, as you saw at Barona!  

[Bob_Huntley]

I'm not sure of the distance, but the walk up the hill at Cruden Bay sure gets the pulse going. If I won the lottery I would donate a rope tow to the club.

[THuckaby2]

Great mention, Bob - a rope tow would be a hell of an idea there!  To me that's definitely one in the "worth it" category... the view up top is pretty darn cool and whilst #9 is not that "great" of a golf hole, not doing the tee shot on 10 would be a shame... and the more I think about it how else would the routing work?  

Shamless game plug - last time there I damn near ran up that hill after making a deuce on 8.  Funny how one walks on air after a well-played hole...  


TH

[ed_getka]

A 300 yd walk shouldn't be a problem for most people. If I told people they could walk 300 yards down the street where a guy is handing out free 20 dollar bills they would go in a heartbeat.

The nice thing about a three hole loop is late in the day you can just stay out there and go around a few times, especially if you think you can put some cool holes in there.

I wouldn't let a 300yd. walk deter you Todd, but as Tom pointed out most golfers are cartballers.

How did qualifying for the Am go?

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Thanks for making my golfing shortfalls public knowledge, Ed.  I was in it at Pasatiempo after round 1 with a 72, but proceeded to slowly fall apart in pieces to a 79 in the afternoon.  I'm not exactly sharp this summer.  By the way, Mr. Doak's restoration work there looks and plays great-especially #10 and #15.

[THuckaby2]

In Todd's defense and since he's far too humble to mention this, please note that his 72-79 equalled a tie for 16th place out of app. 70 players in his qualifying group... so there's bad and then there's bad.  Looks pretty damn good from where I sit!

And yes, they can set up Pasa to play very tough for things like this... Winner was 140 and 144 was 4th place.

Curious to me is that golf course designers can play the game as amateurs... I don't know why that surprised me - it sure as heck makes fair, logical sense, but that just seemed odd to me and I didn't think the USGA was nearly that progressive.

TH

[ed getka]

Todd,
 Too bad about qualifying. I only found out you were even doing it when I heard you decided to opt out of an invite. I hope your back is better than it was in April and hopefully we'll see you in the Amateur next year.

[Stan Dodd]

Tom, Bob , Dave
The walk up the hill at Cruden Bay will have you out of breath and in my case has led to a couple of funky swings on 9.  But unlike Tom I was trudging up the hill, with the proverbial 'bad attitude, after a double on 8,  and missed qualifying for match play by one shot, during Cruden's Golf Week.
Ed
Good comment on playing the loop over and over.  Really fun to do when you are pressed for time and no one is on course.
Stan

[TEPaul]

Todd;

Maybe I didn't read this thread carefully enough but did you ever explain why the walk was necessarily as long as it is or why things can't be tightened up more between this section and the other one?

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Tom...Just not possible.  A mountain, essentially, is in the way.  I'd like to think I can move mountains for my clients, but this would be a bit much.

[Dan King]

One thing to consider when building a course that relies heavily on cart traffic is that carts are a passing fad. When the age of carts die out in the not to distant future you will have a course nobody wants to play.

The hike at Cruden Bay was mentioned, the chief difference between Cruden Bay's hike up to the ninth tee is a nice bench to sit on and a beautiful view... The two chief differences are a nice bench to sit on, a beautiful view and the option of not making the hike... The three chief differences are a nice bench, beautiful view, the option to not make the hike and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope... Our four... No... Amongst the weapons... Amongst the differences... Are such elements as a nice bench, a beautiful view... Oh hell, I'll come in again.

I've given some thought to why the long hike at Cruden Bay works, but doesn't work elsewhere. I think the biggest deal is there is a nice reward for making the hike, a beautiful view of the coast line, the town and castle. The other thing is that if you are playing your fourth or fifth round of the day and not in the mood to hike up the hill you can just skip over to the 17th tee (unfortunately, you are required to skip like a little girl) and play Cruden as a 10 hole course. The only thing missing would be a nice shrubbery near the 9th tee.

Dan King
dking@danking.org

Knight of Ni:  We want.....
A SHRUBBERY!!!!
Arthur:  A WHAT?
Knights of Ni: Ni!  Ni!!  Ni!  Ni!
Arthur: No!  No!  Please, please, no more!  We will find you a shrubbery.
Knight of Ni: You must return here with a shrubbery or else you will never pass through this wood alive.
Arthur: O Knights of Ni, you are just and fair, and we will return with a shrubbery.
Knight of Ni: One that looks nice.
Arthur:  Of course!
Knight of Ni: And not too expensive.
Arthur:  Yes!
Knight of Ni: Noowwwww GO!

[Slag Bandoon]

 ...ahh yes, and the Spamloaf Volcano with Spam in the Cruden Bay clubhouse is to kill for.