[Adam Clayman]

Could someone give examples of such courses?

The only reference I ever heard to the term was about Chaparral Pines in Payson, AZ.

[JESII]

Maybe not an exact fit, but the one time I played the well regarded Glen Mills GC in the SW suburbs of Philadelphia I kept thinking it "fought the land"

Admittedly, it is a very severe piece of land for a golf course...too severe, I might say...but it is a course, so we've got to talk about it. My criticism is not necessarily about the hole designs or the routing, but rather each individual hole seemed to be canted back into the hillside it was cut out of. There are these tremendous slopes that the holes are cut into and the fairways have either no tilt with the slope, or as I felt, they actually tilt slightly back into the slope, trapping all of the runoff on the fairway.

Perhaps I just caught the course on an unusually wet day and I looked a little too hard at this, but it seemed an overaggressive cut and fill job to me...

[Cabell Ackerly]

I bet there are thousands of courses that fight the land. What about those that fight the land...successfully.

I'd nominate The Homestead - Cascades. Flynn's routing of the 1st 10 holes is pretty impressive; and from what I understand, he had a lot less to work with than the finished product might indicate.

[Michael Dugger]

Sandpines

Discussion over!

[Kirk Gill]

The 18th at Trump National in Los Angeles fought the land, and the land won.

[Adam Clayman]

My sense is Sully's descriptions captures what I was referring to. However, I don't want to limit the discussion.

Cabell-The concept of fighting the land and winning is new to me. I'm not familar with the course sited. Could you provide additional examples, or, better describe what you mean?

Kirk, I started singin' immediatley on your post registering.

Micheal, Not sure if blights upon the land constitutes fighting it, but as I said, I'm not limiting the discussion.

[Mike_Young]

In my eye Ocean Forest is such a course.  the strategy is fine but something just doesnt fit....

[Andy Troeger]

I can think of holes that fight the land in the sense that they go against the slope. The course that somewhat comes to mind is the Broadmoor Mountain course because its on the side of the mountain and had to be terraced somewhat to help erosion. Given the site its not as bad as it could be though, I only played it after the recent Nicklaus renovation.

Adam,
Have you played Chaparral? I'm hoping to play there in a month or so if all goes well.

[Adam Clayman]

Yes Andy, I have played there. Parts reminded me of some of the parkland courses in Wisconsin, only with steeper sidewalls.  

[David Stamm]

The Crossings at Carlsbad. 10 re-routes, 3 times over budget ($70 million) and a plane crash. I think that qualifies.


By definition, how about PGA West Stadium. There was nothing there except an abandoned orange orchard.

[Mike Wagner]

Newcastle in Bellevue, WA.  

[Gib_Papazian]

I hate to pick on this golf course. My host was the creator of the Energizer Bunny, and dying of cancer in what proved to be his last round of golf before he passed away . . . . . .

But Atlantic does not work. The routing is a screaming argument with the land and I fail to see why it was necessary to connect the dots in such a disjointed way.

Everything seems to go against the grain of the terrain; I actually felt agitated and frustrated by the end because the inner vibrations and energy flow of the ground seemed at odds with where the holes were clumsily shoved.

Cascata in Boulder City, NV gave me the same sensation of confusion and paddling against the current of God's hand.

Surprisingly, there are elements of Spyglass that feel forced on the land - especially the back nine, where to me, the routing has always seemed to move gracelessly towards the end, as if Jones was so enamored with the opening holes that he forgot to finish the painting.

The Hapuna Course - just up the hill from Mauna Kea is another. I cannot put my finger on it, but Arnie's boys routed out a golf course that is nothing less than annoying to play. Strange culverts appear out of nowhere, creating a backstop for tee shots set up downhill and downwind.

The same happened at the Palmer Course at Kapalua - I have played it 40 times - but I am not sure anybody could have been able to deal with such a hideous piece of land. We will see what happens with the remodel.

All this stated, the prime offender and all time prize-winner for fighting the land is still Eagle Ridge in Morgan Hill, CA. Convoluted, hoplessly artificial and humorless, I think Johnny Miller hired the local drunk to go out there with some stakes and have at it.

Carmel Valley Ranch falls into the category, but the ground on the back side was as impossible as that train wreck Casey O'Callaghan got roped into at The Ranch in San Jose. You cannot pick on guys who try to force something on an impossible parcel of dirt because they need the dough or nothing else has come along.

The original course at Blackhawk falls into that black abyss; not even Seth Raynor could have made chicken salad out of that mess.

So the question ought to be "Can you name courses on decent property that fight the land needlessly?"

Otherwise you could go on for days . . . . .    

[Dan Herrmann]

Wren Dale (Hurdzan-Fry) in Hershey seems to fight the land, but I think it ultimately comes out on top.  Yes, there are forced carries, but the designers put in some very nice golf holes in some tough spaces.  And the routing is nicely done too.

Certainly not world class, but it does provide a lot of memoriable shots.

Contrast it with Rees Jones' Tattersal and Ledgerock in the western exurbs of Philly.   I think the land won in these two cases.

[Matt MacIver]

In a converse to the intended question (I think) - Shadow Creek.  

[Tony Ristola]

There are tons of these all over the world. In California Lost Canyons and Coto de Caza come to mind. Both had budgets or enough land to put up a fight. Coto is far more playable than Lost Ball Canyons, but its few fairways with trees in the corner of doglegs and fairways that sloped away towards hazards or forest drove me nuts; that was 15 plus years ago. Things may have changed. Their 18th made it a 17-hole golf course for most.

Up the coast and north of the border I'm told by buddies that Furry Creek fought the land and lost.

[TEPaul]

"Could someone give examples of such courses?"

Adam:

I'll give you a great example of a hole that "fought the land" in the context of the play of the golf ball.

Yesterday, I was playing golf at Laurel Valley in Ligonier Pa and my partners were explaining how the par 5 11th hole used to be as originally designed by Dick Wilson (actually the old hole corridor, tees etc are still there).

Wilson's par 5 proceeded in a long running left to right gentle curve against topography that is very much slanting right to left. Obviously a hole like that strategically involved playing the ball up to the right just to keep it on the fairway left (there was real danger on the left).

Palmer's new 11th hole runs right to left with the slant of the ground.

They seemed to imply that Palmer's hole is not very popular and some of the players who remember Wilson's old hole that makes the golf ball fight the land would like to see it restored.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, Thanx.
 Yours and other posts that describe fighting the land in this manner are understandable, but are they undesirable or unacceptable? Especially if used sparingly, adding variety and perhaps some deception (See 'What makes a Green hard to read')

After reading your description of Laurel Valley, the story reminded me of how the first green on the Plantation at Kapalua was constructed. As I understand it, the amount of fill needed to get the green close to puttable was massive. That reminds me of Forrest's Hideout's 3rd where he basically built a mountain to create the green. The difference with it and Kapalua is that the first green on Maui still slopes in the general direction of the hill. Forrest's green's furthest leftside is built up, so balls break uphill, or, against the natural hillside the green abutts.
Knowing Forrest it was probably humor. Knowing C&C, was it fighting the land?

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