When Mackenzie lost it..

[TEPaul]

JohnK:

I believe you are exactly right, as far as you went. But what-all do you think Mackenzie was trying to accomplish when you say he was trying to entice the golfer's eye? In other words, for what purpose, or more appropriately, purposes?

Don't forget, Alister Mackenzie just may've been one of the most knowledgeable of all about the details or perhaps even the very essence of TOC.

Flynn, on the other hand, as far as we know, never ventured across the Atlantic to the other side where the beginnings of golf and architecture could be found.

What Flynn learned with golf architecture may've come more from his original mentor and employer, Hugh Wilson of Merion. Where Wilson got his fairly unique ideas about golf architecture, particularly on bunkering and its philosophy, he apparently got from the other side. Perhaps as much from the English INLAND heathlands as from the Scottish linksland.

I think, as time goes on, all of us will begin to understand better what that early really good man-made inland healthland architecture meant to those guys back then who were trying to get more natural with their architecture over here, albeit dedicatedly more scientific about it both in construction, in maintenance and most importantly in its affect on the golfer and his game.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think I've ever played a MacKenzie course so I may be out of bounds with this question, but wouldn't he have tried to "entice the eyes" as a different way of challenging the mind?

I think it is a different way of challenging the mind and perhaps a very good one.  I like pretty golf courses where you need to avoid the pretty while looking right at it.

[TEPaul]

"I don't think I've ever played a MacKenzie course so I may be out of bounds with this question, but wouldn't he have tried to "entice the eyes" as a different way of challenging the mind?"

Sully:

In my opinion, of course Mackenzie was trying to do that with his particular style, particularly with his fairly unique style and type of sand bunkering.

But how was he trying to challenge the mind in that way?

All of this has been discussed on here at different times and in different ways but perhaps never at one time and place in the context of some comprehensive question such as the one JohnK asked.

To truly understand what Mackenzie was trying to do with his architecture, and particularly with his type and style of sand bunkering I think one needs to understand two things really well:

1. One needs to understand ALL of what he observed during the Boer War in what the Boers did with their military trenches and how that affected the British military's tactics and how he applied all that to golf course architecture in a number of ways.

2. One really needs to understand how Mackenzie felt about the natural occurence of linksland land formations and particularly of natural sand areas in an atmosphere such as TOC and how that initially affected old fashioned golf and golfers.

[John Kavanaugh]

JohnK:

I believe you are exactly right, as far as you went. But what-all do you think Mackenzie was trying to accomplish when you say he was trying to entice the golfer's eye? In other words, for what purpose, or more appropriately, purposes?

Don't forget, Alister Mackenzie just may've been one of the most knowledgeable of all about the details or perhaps even the very essence of TOC.

I think what Mackenzie was trying to do was improve upon The Old Course by identifying the location of his bunkers with beacons of beauty.  I think he had a deep seated hate for The Old Course and the homeland that rejected him to a point where he spent his entire life trying to fluff up architecture rather than letting it stand on its own.  It is an old story of greatness piled upon greatness until you can no longer see what made it great to begin with.  Can you imagine the greatness that Cypress would have been if it had simply been allowed to stand for the strategic genius it is against the unsurpassed beauty where it sits without the fluff of bunker after bunker after bunker.  It is mind boggling.

[TEPaul]

"I like pretty golf courses where you need to avoid the pretty while looking right at it."

JohnK:

Hmmm, interesting!

To avoid 'the pretty'?

And not just that---to also avoid 'the pretty' while looking right at it?

What do you mean by that? What do you specifically consider to be 'the pretty'?

Furthermore, if one's challenge is to avoid 'the pretty' does that then mean that one is trying to play his ball towards or to THE UGLY?

And if that's true, what would the latter be on a golf course you like?

I'm sorry to sound so Socratic but you have asked a very good and fundamental question here. We may even be entering into a discussion the very ETHICS of golf here---if there even is such a thing.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,

One of the strange natures of golf is that hazards are generally beautiful.   This partially explains while often when playing a course a first time you avoid hazards that you did not know exist but the next time around your eye is drawn to that location and somehow so is your ball.

[TEPaul]

"I think what Mackenzie was trying to do was improve upon The Old Course by identifying the location of his bunkers with beacons of beauty.  I think he had a deep seated hate for The Old Course and the homeland that rejected him to a point where he spent his entire life trying to fluff up architecture rather than letting it stand on its own.  It is an old story of greatness piled upon greatness until you can no longer see what made it great to begin with.  Can you imagine the greatness that Cypress would have been if it had simply been allowed to stand for the strategic genius it is against the unsurpassed beauty where it sits without the fluff of bunker after bunker after bunker.  It is mind boggling."


JohnK:

I don't think I've ever actually asked you this on GOLFCLUBALTAS.com, and by doing it I definitely don't want to expose your true modus operandi and intentions on here if they really are some things other than what most on here take them to be-----but would you mind telling me---seriously now---if you really are serious about what all you said in that remark above?

If you are completely honest about this---this discussion has the potential to turn into a truly good and edifying one, in my opinion.

If, on the other hand, you're just putting me or us on for some reason it will never be a good and edifying discussion.


By the way, do you have any real idea what Cypress Point looked like, particularly in its massive stretches of rough sand areas, before anyone thought to build a golf course on it? This was definitely not true of all parts of the pre-construction site but it certainly was true of large parts of it.

[David Stamm]

   I think he had a deep seated hate for The Old Course and the homeland that rejected him to a point where he spent his entire life trying to fluff up architecture rather than letting it stand on its own.  

John, John, John. Do you have any clue what you are talking about??? Hated the TOC?!? The man revered it more than any other. Try reading a book before making this sort of accusation. The man waxed poetic in both his books about TOC. Do I really have to start pulling the countless quotes?

[Paul_Turner]

What Flynn learned with golf architecture may've come more from his original mentor and employer, Hugh Wilson of Merion. Where Wilson got his fairly unique ideas about golf architecture, particularly on bunkering and its philosophy, he apparently got from the other side. Perhaps as much from the English INLAND heathlands as from the Scottish linksland.

I think, as time goes on, all of us will begin to understand better what that early really good man-made inland healthland architecture meant to those guys back then who were trying to get more natural with their architecture over here, albeit dedicatedly more scientific about it both in construction, in maintenance and most importantly in its affect on the golfer and his game.

Tom

And MacKenzie was one of the earliest to work on the INLAND English heath (Alwoodley 1905-1907).

[John Kavanaugh]

I am 100% serious.  Please note that I have only played Pasa and never read a book about Mackenzie so my opinions are only gut feelings based upon similarities I see between the object of Mackenzies professional life and mine.

[John Kavanaugh]

   I think he had a deep seated hate for The Old Course and the homeland that rejected him to a point where he spent his entire life trying to fluff up architecture rather than letting it stand on its own.  

John, John, John. Do you have any clue what you are talking about??? Hated the TOC?!? The man revered it more than any other. Try reading a book before making this sort of accusation. The man waxed poetic in both his books about TOC. Do I really have to start pulling the countless quotes?

I love my wife more than life itself.

[paul cowley]

I don't think I've ever played a MacKenzie course so I may be out of bounds with this question, but wouldn't he have tried to "entice the eyes" as a different way of challenging the mind?

I think it is a different way of challenging the mind and perhaps a very good one.  I like pretty golf courses where you need to avoid the pretty while looking right at it.

Well said John......and I also like to be able to ignore the pretty that isn't part of the challenge....which in extreme cases can induce what I describe a 'horizontal vertigo.

....but enough said, as this starts to get a little too close to my own internal debates, which I prefer to grind out on my own......so much of the real design skirmish occurs in these type of grey areas, areas where balance and equilibrium can have a hard time finding a foothold....but are vital none the less.

My guess is that this is one reason that KBM doesn't contribute here anymore. Its hard to hold up ones developing convictions for everyone to shoot at......not only is it distracting, but you become very vulnerable in the process.


 

[David Stamm]

I am 100% serious.  Please note that I have only played Pasa and never read a book about Mackenzie so my opinions are only gut feelings based upon similarities I see between the object of Mackenzies professional life and mine.

In that case , John, I would suggest reading his books before making these statements. I think if you did, it would enlighten you about MacKenzie's views on the TOC and architecture in general. TOC was the focal point as to why AM and Behr debated Joshua Crane in regards to Crane's point rating system and why they felt he was so off base.

[Mike Golden]

I am 100% serious.  Please note that I have only played Pasa and never read a book about Mackenzie so my opinions are only gut feelings based upon similarities I see between the object of Mackenzies professional life and mine.

John, no offense, but you need a bottle of scotch and a copy of 'The Spirit of St. Andrews', not necessarily in that order, before you make any further comments about Alistair MacKenzie.  Please.

[John Kavanaugh]

I am 100% serious.  Please note that I have only played Pasa and never read a book about Mackenzie so my opinions are only gut feelings based upon similarities I see between the object of Mackenzies professional life and mine.

In that case , John, I would suggest reading his books before making these statements. I think if you did, it would enlighten you about MacKenzie's views on the TOC and architecture in general. TOC was the focal point as to why AM and Behr debated Joshua Crane in regards to Crane's point rating system and why they felt he was so off base.

If that is truly the case why was Mackenzie afraid to copy the old course in style.  Why did he feel a need to top it...To show he was better.  People do not write love letters to without considering the return.  I see no value in reading what Mackenzie said he loved when the proof is in his work.

[Pete Lavallee]

David,

Do you have any evidence, other than the drawing, to indicate the 10th green was actually built in that fashion?

Pete, not evidence, but this is remarkably similar to the original 18th green (the present 9th) at Augusta National, which featured a similar tooth shaped green wrapping a front center bunker.  The Augusta version apparently didn't last long either.

Mike

Mike,

The resemblence is definetly there. The back of the 13th green at Pasa has two lobes like this also. I don't doubt that MacKenzie contemplated this feature. I just don't think he built it on the 10th, simply because the black and whites featured on this thread were from very close the course's opening and there is no evidence that these frontal lobes existed then.

[John Kavanaugh]

I am 100% serious.  Please note that I have only played Pasa and never read a book about Mackenzie so my opinions are only gut feelings based upon similarities I see between the object of Mackenzies professional life and mine.

John, no offense, but you need a bottle of scotch and a copy of 'The Spirit of St. Andrews', not necessarily in that order, before you make any further comments about Alistair MacKenzie.  Please.

I gave my copy to some kid on Bombsquad before I read it because I thought it would do him more good than me.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
One of the strange natures of golf is that hazards are generally beautiful.  This partially explains while often when playing a course a first time you avoid hazards that you did not know exist but the next time around your eye is drawn to that location and somehow so is your ball."


John:

That to me is a fascinating remark.

I don't exactly want to waylay this discussion from one that concentrates on your initial question of the continuing existence of Flynn architecture or bunkering and the apparent lack of it with Mackenzie architecture or bunkering but that remark above needs to be looked into.

Are you aware, for instance, of one of the rather old fashioned definitions of "beautiful" or what was once called "The Beautiful" (as well as in some comparitive way to what was back then referred to as "The Picturesque")?

Back then the concept of "The Beautiful", (and in some ways even "The Sublime") was taken to mean something, generally physical and natural, such as land formations, that were AWE-inspiring. In a real way that also meant fearsome and perhaps even dangerous. These things are part of the proposed and debated philosophies of the likes of Edmund Burke and Immanuel Kant.

We are now entering into that time and atmosphere when scientific investigations and also in some ways art itself were beginning to evolve out of the over-all context of religiosity.

[John Kavanaugh]

We are now entering into that time and atmosphere when scientific investigations and also art were beginning to evolve out of the over-all context of religiosity.

Religion used to be what the internet is today.  Look long enough you you will find anything you want be it true or not.

Speaking of that I need to get in my car and drop off a Rosary for my kid who forgot his at home.  Hopefully I will still be a registered user when I return.

[Mike Golden]

I am 100% serious.  Please note that I have only played Pasa and never read a book about Mackenzie so my opinions are only gut feelings based upon similarities I see between the object of Mackenzies professional life and mine.

John, no offense, but you need a bottle of scotch and a copy of 'The Spirit of St. Andrews', not necessarily in that order, before you make any further comments about Alistair MacKenzie.  Please.

I gave my copy to some kid on Bombsquad before I read it because I thought it would do him more good than me.

John,

To quote the great John McEnroe, 'you can't be serious'

You've never played TOC, the only MacKenzie course you've seen is Pasatiempo, never read 'The Spirit of St. Andrews' and are making all these WAG's based on a gut feeling.

Wow, can you pass me whatever you are taking

[TEPaul]

"Hopefully I will still be a registered user when I return."

Don't you worry about that.

The fact that you just admitted you were 100% serious in what you've said on this thread means to me that this thread has the potential to be one of the most interesting ever on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.

This kind of thread never seems to get all that much play with most on here and that's probably because it sure can be some pretty heavy, albeit it heady, stuff.

This kind of thread and subject is why I stay on this webite.

[TEPaul]

"John, John, John. Do you have any clue what you are talking about??? Hated the TOC?!? The man revered it more than any other. Try reading a book before making this sort of accusation. The man waxed poetic in both his books about TOC. Do I really have to start pulling the countless quotes?"


David:

Hold on a moment.

Don't sell John Kavanaugh short here.

It's possible that maybe not----but it's also possible that MAYBE he is onto something here.

If so, we may be about to not only delve into a discussion of some of the real depths of Alister Mackenzie but perhaps also into some of the real depths of John Kavanaugh himself.

I've always suspected that this man has some kind of underlying message on here and I would just love to know what it is.

On the other hand, if it turns out to be something like everyday "Born-againism", I, for one, am not interested in pursuing a discussion of that aspect.    

[Rich Goodale]

Good one, Tom

John is onto something here, and not only because those who are most vigourously "arguing" with him can think of little to say except, "Well, just because!"

Rich

[Bill_McBride]

"Hopefully I will still be a registered user when I return."

Don't you worry about that.

The fact that you just admitted you were 100% serious in what you've said on this thread means to me that this thread has the potential to be one of the most interesting ever on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.

This kind of thread never seems to get all that much play with most on here and that's probably because it sure can be some pretty heavy, albeit it heady, stuff.

This kind of thread and subject is why I stay on this webite.

You do have to admit that John Kavanaugh has some large stones.

[JESII]

He may well have large stones, I don't know, one thing he definitely has is a wider screen than the rest of us...much more going on in there...