When Mackenzie lost it..

[RJ_Daley]

I think the idea of the complete abandonment of the baranca bunker (or half pipe as you call it) and the restoration is again an example of understanding the historical context.  

JK seems to think that MacKenzie constructed all this artsy bunkering in baranca flows without any regard to future erosion (which was sure to happen).  Was Gormley and Coll on the Pasatiempo team for the construction and bunker finishwork?

We don't know what drainage is under and flowing with that half pipe in 1930s; do we?  JK points to debris as some proof that it was a mess.  He may verywell be right.  But, again we have to believe that an engineer was a consulting partner on this project.

But, in historical context: Why was the baranca filled in.  Was it part of the entire movement that took over in the country as a response to WWII?  Look at ANGC, and it being converted to pasture during that period.  If Pasa was open during that time, surely all the very detailed bunkering had to be abandoned due to the extreme cost of maintenance, and all the conservation that had to take place during the war years.  I don't know that is the reason for a fact.  But, I think it is a likely explanation from how we get from the look of the earlly 1930s to the bland and covered up-filled in look that evolved until the restoration took hold.

I think many of these challenges to ODGs talent such as to suggest MacKenzie may have made pretty bunkers, but then point to the fact that they were abandoned, is not looking at the Why in historical context.

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

Look at the slope of the bunkers going down the flow line.  Doak greatly reduced the slope to impede the rate of flow of the water.  I think these will last.

[Mike Golden]

Even though #10 has, without question, kicked my butt every single time I've played Pasatiempo (I don't think I've ever smelled a par) in either configuration I just marvel at the way Tom Doak and crew restored it to the original.

Looking at the original photos makes it clear that Pasa was the equivalent of every great course in America at that time. And, thanks to the work of Tom and the willingness of the membership to allow as much of a restoration as possible, it seems even better than the last time I played there in mid 2004.

Mike,

I agree that the pictures of the original Pasa look as good as anything I have ever seen with the possible exception of the original pics of The Riviera.  What I question about Mackenzie is if he had the foresight to plan for the future.  He reminds me of a water colorist who hangs his paintings on the porch.

John,

Why would Pasa be any different, in that regard, from Cypress Point or any other course he designed?  He seemed to do a pretty good job on the others.

In all honesty, and I've played Pasa enough time to know it pretty well, it is a great golf course that stands the test of time.  The last time I played it was before many of Tom's changes but the ones that were complete (#1, #9, #10, #12) not only put the holes back closer to the original design but also improved them.  On a dollar for dollar basis I would swap 3 rounds at Pasa for 1 round at Pebble any day of the week.

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck,

Look at the slope of the bunkers going down the flow line.  Doak greatly reduced the slope to impede the rate of flow of the water.  I think these will last.

I really don't see that, John.  Perhaps it looks that way in the picture... But I sure didn't see that playing the golf hole.

I'll be sure to look next time though.  I'm planning to play there in a month or so.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Even though #10 has, without question, kicked my butt every single time I've played Pasatiempo (I don't think I've ever smelled a par) in either configuration I just marvel at the way Tom Doak and crew restored it to the original.

Looking at the original photos makes it clear that Pasa was the equivalent of every great course in America at that time. And, thanks to the work of Tom and the willingness of the membership to allow as much of a restoration as possible, it seems even better than the last time I played there in mid 2004.

Mike,

I agree that the pictures of the original Pasa look as good as anything I have ever seen with the possible exception of the original pics of The Riviera.  What I question about Mackenzie is if he had the foresight to plan for the future.  He reminds me of a water colorist who hangs his paintings on the porch.

John,

Why would Pasa be any different, in that regard, from Cypress Point or any other course he designed?  He seemed to do a pretty good job on the others.

In all honesty, and I've played Pasa enough time to know it pretty well, it is a great golf course that stands the test of time.  The last time I played it was before many of Tom's changes but the ones that were complete (#1, #9, #10, #12) not only put the holes back closer to the original design but also improved them.  On a dollar for dollar basis I would swap 3 rounds at Pasa for 1 round at Pebble any day of the week.

Mike,

The amateurs that designed Pebble did an even worse job of building bunkers that could survive the environment.

[RJ_Daley]

Well, I do see it (gradual leveling off or slightly back up slope at the end.  What we don't see in the old 1930 pic is how severe the slope run out was and how far it extended.  But, I have little doubt that it was a damn severe gully then, with gullywashers after rains then.  But, I also figure that MacKenzie and their team weren't stupid, and made more provisions for that than the idea of leaving his watercolor out in the rain...or was it MacKenzie's Park.

MacKenzie's Park is melting in the dark
All the sweet, green icing flowing down
Someone left the cake out in the rain
I don't think that I can take it
'Cause it took so long to bake it
And I'll never have that recipe again
Oh, no!

[John_Cullum]

Can anyone else think of other Mackenzie bunkers that went down the maintenance drain?  This discussion is not limited to Pasa.

This would be a good time for John Stiles to post his file photo of Augusta National

[Tom Huckaby]

Love the song - why am I picturing Donna Summer in a kilt?

 

But the bottom line is you are ascribing some pretty serious stupidity to Mackenzie, and I just can't buy it.

Note also the angle on the two pictures is pretty different, John.  Assessing this based on those is going to be guess-work....

TH

[Mike Golden]

Even though #10 has, without question, kicked my butt every single time I've played Pasatiempo (I don't think I've ever smelled a par) in either configuration I just marvel at the way Tom Doak and crew restored it to the original.

Looking at the original photos makes it clear that Pasa was the equivalent of every great course in America at that time. And, thanks to the work of Tom and the willingness of the membership to allow as much of a restoration as possible, it seems even better than the last time I played there in mid 2004.

Mike,

I agree that the pictures of the original Pasa look as good as anything I have ever seen with the possible exception of the original pics of The Riviera.  What I question about Mackenzie is if he had the foresight to plan for the future.  He reminds me of a water colorist who hangs his paintings on the porch.

John,

Why would Pasa be any different, in that regard, from Cypress Point or any other course he designed?  He seemed to do a pretty good job on the others.

In all honesty, and I've played Pasa enough time to know it pretty well, it is a great golf course that stands the test of time.  The last time I played it was before many of Tom's changes but the ones that were complete (#1, #9, #10, #12) not only put the holes back closer to the original design but also improved them.  On a dollar for dollar basis I would swap 3 rounds at Pasa for 1 round at Pebble any day of the week.

Mike,

The amateurs that designed Pebble did an even worse job of building bunkers that could survive the environment.

I just look at things differently, John.  I know what I like about golf courses and what I don't like and am not really concerned about what is going to happen in 30 years when I am long gone.

[David Stamm]

John,

   Do you know what AM originally designed the hole to play as? Do you know what you call a "drainage ditch" is what's known as an arroyo in California? The same "ditches" seen throughout Rustic Canyon, which BTW, do have sand on the bottom? Now, whether the sand was put there by Geoff, Gil and Jim or is a natural feature is another matter. Out of touch with golf strategy? How so?

The hole was originally designed to play as a par 5. Below is a sketch by AM of the green and how the "half pipe" as you call it would have protected the left pin placement.




The hole's original tee was played from across the road from what I've seen from the course itself and research. As you can see, the green has lost it's entire left side, thus negating the need for the bunker to begin with. It's important to find out from TD if there are plans to restore the green to it's original design and thus bringing the bunkered arroyo into play the way it was designed to.


As for AM building bunkers for little regard for function. You probably could say that for every arch of that time period based on your reasoning. Their bunkers took care and patience to maintian. Why do you think so many of AM's, Thomas/Bells', and AWT's have lost their forms over the years? Besides, you are going to make that broad sweeping of a statement based on this hole? Are you joking? Please cite specifics before you say something like this.


BTW, those amateurs (Jack Neville, Douglas Grant) are not responsible for the bunkers you describe at Pebble. That wasn't done until later by Egan, a pretty damn good architect.

[Bill_McBride]

All I know is this:

Nobody better EVER claim that the ODGs didn't do "double-hazards"!

I think that's where Dr. M lost it -- look at that HIDEOUS tree in the half-pipe!  BARF.

You're kidding, right?  You think that tree was there 75 years ago?  I don't think you  can blame MacKenzie for the trees on the course today but go ahead, why not?

See the second link - the one from Mike Sweeney.  

Bill, I have found over the years that crow tastes very yummy, especially with tree sap syrup.

What tree?



 

[Bill_McBride]

Not knowing whether you missed the link or not, errr, on the off chance you did...this tree:

MacKenzie himself went out and cut that tree down shortly after that photo was taken.  Hence, no tree in that recent photo!  

[David Stamm]

Well, I won't ever look at that hole the same way again when I play it.

[paul cowley]

My guess, and Tom D could probably confirm it, is that the green site might have been a partial fill of the arroyo or barranca or ditch.....and as such might have included a sub surface major storm drainage line that is not only under the green, but also under the bunker complex.

I have not played Pasa, but I do know that this type of system was also incorporated at Pebble, with the most obvious examples being found at the arroyos that cross #2 fairway between the first and second landing zones, and again at #16, with the deep fronting cross bunker before the green.

Both of these bunkers have a storm drain below them that functions to allow the normal water flow to pass beneath with out interfering with the bunker above....but when major storm events occur [flooding], the water just passes over and through the bunker, with a rebuild effort to follow.
Fortunately these events happen rarely.

I try to use this technique on occasion, but these occasions are few because its becoming increasingly rare that we can fill a water channel and build anything above it.

Tom might confirm my hunch about #10.

[John Kavanaugh]

Paul,

Can you speculate why Doak would be able to build a better bunker than Mackenzie when Doak is using drainage technology as old as the Pyramids?  How long did a typical Mackenzie bunker last before it was completely replaced or rebuilt?  Is the inability to build a lasting bunker Mackenzie's greatest failure as an architect?  Does an original Mackenzie bunker remain anywhere in the world?

[Pete Lavallee]

As you can see, the green has lost it's entire left side, thus negating the need for the bunker to begin with. It's important to find out from TD if there are plans to restore the green to it's original design and thus bringing the bunkered arroyo into play the way it was designed to.

David,

Do you have any evidence, other than the drawing, to indicate the 10th green was actually built in that fashion? Looking at the early and present pictures, it seems that the left edge of the green stops right at the second bunker tounge to the left in both photos.

Since the Doak team has already restored this hole, my guess is that this is as far as they are willing to go. It would seem that the green depicted in the drawing would be better suited to a par 5 than a long par 4.

[Paul_Turner]

Some of those shots of the bare barranca's at Pasatiempo are wonderful...amazing scale and views.

Mackenzie evolved his style,  guess you can't please everyone.   A true pioneer and one of the very first to start building attractive inland golf courses with "natural" or rugged looking hazards.

[paul cowley]

Paul,

Can you speculate why Doak would be able to build a better bunker than Mackenzie when Doak is using drainage technology as old as the Pyramids?  How long did a typical Mackenzie bunker last before it was completely replaced or rebuilt?  Is the inability to build a lasting bunker Mackenzie's greatest failure as an architect?  Does an original Mackenzie bunker remain anywhere in the world?

John....I have it on good authority that the fairway bunker on #10 ANGC is the last remaining original Mackenzie bunker left in the world.

It probably survived like the Coelacanth fish that everyone thought was a fossil until someone caught one in a net some 400 issues of Nat. Geographic ago.....it was so out of place  that no one noticed it was around.

I am impressed with the extent of the Doak groups faithful renovation of this particular "gully bunker" [my name].

I think many of the old and the new ragged edge bunkers need to evolve and not stay the same as when they were built....and how well they do depends much on the talents and the interest of the Super.

Personally I don't obsess about stuff staying the same...and that includes my own work too.

[John_Cullum]

It is still not totally clear, but judging by the signature on the plan, I say it is a capital K

[Ken Moum]

The map on my wall also agrees that it's K not k

But I understand this has been discussed to death, without conclusion.



Ken

[Tom_Doak]

We used pictures from the Grand Opening of Pasatiempo to restore the tenth hole as best we could.  No way we were going to build it to the drawing since MacKenzie [capital K] himself chose not to.

There is a large drainage pipe in the barranca which was installed well before we got there but probably sometime after 1930.  I think it's a fair guess that the original bunker was a maintenance issue and may have been washed away at some point -- don't forget, they've built a lot of homes above the course and probably increased the runoff and erosion issues substantially over the years.  

Until our recent work a length of the barranca had been filled in, probably because there was a large redwood tree on the right which forced second shots to the left toward the barranca.  I insisted that they cut the tree before we would do the bunker restoration and was very surprised when the club agreed ... in fact I have been surprised at the degree they have wanted to restore the course, beyond what I would have normally recommended.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom D

Since you are the messenger and not the original perpetrator, maybe you tell us what's the architectural purpose of that restored bunker?  It's out of range on the drive, and pretty much out of play for the second, unless you hack both your drive and second, so all that is left is eye candy, no?

As Tom H and the two Johns (K and VdB) will attest, I didn't like that bunker when we played it back in 2001 or so.  With an arroyo (dry or intermittently wet) played all the way down the left side, the hole could be a great and interesting tribute to the 5th at Merion.  While it is great as it is, the new/same old-same old bunker detracts from the hole, IMHO.

Rich

PS--I did par the hole on that day, which as Barney will attest, was about the 50% of the sum total of my contribution to our partnership that day, so I have no architectural axes to grind here, just fond memories.

RFG

[Tom Huckaby]

Rich:

I can, and will attest to your dislike of the bunkers near the green on 10.

But I have to ask now, which do you consider out of play?  I assume just the ones farther back from the green, deeper into what JK calls the "half pipe"?

Because the greenside bunkers in the halfpipe are very much in play, for golfers of all skills.  One generally has a pretty long shot into that green....

You do pose interesting questions, though.  Hopefully Tom D. will answer.  My take on the hole has always been that he restored it so perfectly, I've thought it was cool.  I also find it to be such a darn tough hole while not being overwhelming or anything, I like it how it is today.  I played it many times during the era in which there were no bunkers in the "half-pipe", and while it was still a good hole, it was just so much easier that well... it wasn't as spectacular as it is today.  I guess if you made it arroyo (ie hazard) like what exists between 11 and 12, now that would be something... but it never was that. (Note I've never seen Merion so can't get a grasp on your point about that).

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Rich coined the term half pipe.  I think that may be the other 50% of his contribution that day.  btw...I was in that bunker and believe at one time a picture was posted on this site showing the very shot.

[Tom Huckaby]

Rich coined the term half pipe.  I think that may be the other 50% of his contribution that day.  btw...I was in that bunker and believe at one time a picture was posted on this site showing the very shot.

LOL
Just note I never said one way or the other who coined the term, I was just referring to your use of it in this thread.

In any case, imagine playing the hole as it was pictured in this thread, with no bunkers at all in the half-pipe.  It made it a LOT easier.... hell 2/3 of the year you just took a casual water drop.

TH