When Mackenzie lost it..

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob, Mike, JES:

They didn't call it the "impregnable quadrilateral" for nothing, huh?  

Palmer got them to change it to "Grand Slam". He wasn't sure, but had suspected something was up with that. And every time he thought of the old term, he hitched up his pants.

Jack was actually clueless for a while; he'd grown up in Ohio. He got wise once he passed Hagen, but then it was okay anyway.

Peter

Edit: And for you guys coming back from that OT thread, that's the straight-laced and very manly Mr. Palmer I'm referring to.  But JES knows that, he's just been having extra fun ever since he learned that "brevity is the soul of wit"...and also since that little something about being named best mid-amateur in all of Pennsylvania...He's holding all the cards

 

[John_Cullum]

After some study I have come to the conclusion that holding out the design of Augusta National Golf Club as a tribute to the Old Course was merely a marketing ploy. They were safe because no one from the states had ever seen The Old Course so they could get away with it. Keep in mind they were desperate to sell memberships at the time.

This made MacKenzie hate American Golfers and himself all the more

[David Stamm]

And since you did that pretty much takes care of his next contention that since Mackenzie did not copy TOC which he said he loved that must mean that he actually hated TOC.  

This only proves that either Mackenzie did not have the talent to copy TOC or that he hated American golfers to the point that he thought we would be too stupid to appreciate it if he did.  This leaves three possibilities.

Mackenzie hated American Golfers.
Mackenzie hated The Old Course.
Mackenzie hated himself.

Proves it? How so John?

[David Stamm]

I am not the first one to question why they chose to build a tribute to The Old Course on a rolling nursery.

Because linksland by the sea wasn't an option.

[paul cowley]

Peter:

Good questions above, I guess. I say, I guess, because despite JESII's apparently fine explanation of the distinctions between "representation" and "interpretation" the whole idea of that remark has just got me more bolluxed then ever before.

Then on top of that my old buddy Paul Cowley throws in that he thinks it's representative interpretation. Next week he might even tell me it's interpretative representation. And if all of that or even any of it is true, I'd like to know what in the hell he plans on telling Maurice the bulldozer operator in Newark DE. Maybe I'll just tell Maurice to go into the woods for an hour or so and contemplate his toothpick which appears to be his "comfort blanket" as he bounced around in that dozer, and then come up for #11 green on the ground with whatever comes to him from that.

Look, I'm not very bright and this stuff is getting the better of me.

I'm even beginning to wonder if anything that ever came to me from Behr is legit. At this point the only thing I recognize anymore as legit is a "Mrs Grundy Bunker".

And PaulC promised me he was going to create at least one really good set of "Mrs Grundy Tits" mounding in Maryland. A few weeks ago he said he'd been thinking about some natural looking Martian Debris Fields on one hole.

This stuff is crazy. I've given away a bunch of flasks to my architect friends but now maybe I better to get one of my own.

TP....I have been busy working and missed this, but no way are you going to invest in a flask.....that will be my privilege when we get to the 'gloaming' phase...which is somewhere coming up. Most of what we have been doing is kind of like milling around the starting line, expending energy that gets you ready to run.

Maurice has already started to enter the gloaming phase, something you can begin to see if you look closely around the silhouette of his head. I wouldn't stare because he doesn't know this, as its a state the we have induced in him without his knowing.

Be prepared to park the rover and stay over.....we have much yet to do.

I thought #11 was going to be the par three version of the Road Hole Green, but in reverse to better fit the slope?
Don't waffle, we need to hold that line.

[Bill_McBride]

Counting the angels on the heads of pins could never be as much fun as dissecting and denigrating the existing work of an architect who has so many courses still in the top rank of American and international courses.

Here's John Kavanaugh criticizing the work in general of the good Doctor, having played only one of his courses and read neither MacKenzie's books, nor Tom Doak and Geoff Shackleford's excellent books on MacKenzie.

The mind reels.  Kavanaugh has too much spare time.

[Tom_Doak]

I was just going to suggest a new subtitle for this thread:

" ... Or When Kavanaugh Did"

[John Kavanaugh]

I just want to meet the man who loves Mackenzie without a hidden agenda.  

[Bill_McBride]

Hello.

I have played most of his US courses - everything  but Ohio State and Michigan and the public in Sacramento.  Each takes advantage of the existing land and creates excellent risk-reward scenarios.  The green sites, contours and bunkering, are wonderfully challenging.

I haven't played any Flynn - raised on the West Coast so I don't think that's too surprising - but I have played enough Ross to enjoy them but not be thrilled as I am by MacKenzie's courses.

The modern GCAs I admire most design courses I think reflect the underlying strategies and best characteristics of MacKenzie courses - width, strategic rather than penal, and making great use of existing features such as hills and ravines, creeks and barrancas.

You really need to get out more.  

[Paul_Turner]

I just want to meet the man who loves Mackenzie without a hidden agenda.  

And the agenda is...getting on Augusta National?

[John Kavanaugh]

I just want to meet the man who loves Mackenzie without a hidden agenda.  

And the agenda is...getting on Augusta National?

No.

[Paul_Turner]

Cypress Point?

[Mike_Young]

You guys are overthinking this architecture stuff....I don't think any of the old dead guys thought about this stuff as much as this website does....TOC as ANGC..just conversation....during that time these guys were just building a golf course using ideas they had seen in the past....modern brand identity has played a large roll in these guys becoming arhcie gods.....as BM says..sure mac courses seemed to have more than the DR courses I have seen....but none of these guys could be accused of overhtinking this stuff.....JMO

[John Kavanaugh]

Cypress Point?

No...Nobody gives a damn about access anymore.

[TEPaul]

Sean Arble:

Congratulations to your wife on being so competent in landscape architecture. However, this is a website on golf course architecture not landscape architecture. If she truly thinks some of us on here are into some stupid assumptions about golf course architecture then why don't you encourage her to register on here and contribute and straighten us out as to why she feels that way? And if not, I'd encourage her to get on a landscape architecture website and contribute there.

Again, the mimicing of clouds in bunker shapes at CPC is a well known story and years old. If you don't believe it that's your perogative. The remark about cloudy days or whatever makes virtually no sense.

Many have also said that Ross mimiced waves visible in the Atlantic with his basic bunker shapes of the holes near the coast at Seminole.

Maybe you think that's a lie too but I can tell you first hand there certainly was a passing similarity with his original bunkers on holes such as #13.  

[TEPaul]

"I thought #11 was going to be the par three version of the Road Hole Green, but in reverse to better fit the slope?
Don't waffle, we need to hold that line."

Paul:

Honestly, I think that NGLA Road Hole green can work just great as the 11th green. But it has to have the narrow part come first and the wide part in the back. If it isn't that way I can't see how it would make much strategic or conceptual sense. That overall landform where the entire hole will sit looks pretty level to me but I know what you're saying.

On the other hand, why don't I just go down there and take out a bunch of those trees in that off limits area where I think a great short crescent shaped par 3 green could go?

If the environmental or county people get ticked at the course project, I'll just say Bill told me I could go down there and get some firewood and that nobody told me anything about a golf course project.

How could they do anything to you guys if that happened? Just tell them some yahoo from Pa was told he could get some wood in Maryland to keep his poor wife warm in Pennsylvania.

By the way, the acorns here on the farm have been falling on my head like never before. We're gonna have a very cold winter as a result.

[TEPaul]

MikeY:

I know what you mean about some on here overthinking some of those old architects. That's probably true to some extent and in some cases but that would not be something I'd genearlize about. That just seems a little too convenient.

Have you ever read any Max Behr? God could only help the man who tried to overthink him. The result would be a blown mind in a heartbeat.

What can you say about a man who instead of using a term like "in this case" says "in the premises"?  

[Mike Golden]

I just want to meet the man who loves Mackenzie without a hidden agenda.  

John,

You have truly lost it.  I actually feel bad for you.

[Mike_Young]

MikeY:



Have you ever read any Max Behr? God could only help the man who tried to overthink him. The result would be a blown mind in a heartbeat.
 

Tom,
I did read one of his brochures at the Home Depot but I think one of his family may have written it......great tips on painting furniture......
I know Bob Crosby reads his stuff but he is not real good with his hands and needs lots of help with painting around his house.
Mike

[john_stiles]

Mackenzie found it when he started playing golf at Pasa in his pajamas

[BCrosby]

I know Bob Crosby reads his stuff but he is not real good with his hands and needs lots of help with painting around his house.

Mike/TEP -

Funny you should mention me and Behr.

Just last Saturday morning I was sitting on the porch reading Max Behr, doing line of charm drawings, calculating indirect taxes, getting into a real nice metaphysical frame of mind, when my wife pads up to me in her garden boots and says "I sure could use a man around the house."

"I agree," I said. "Where are you going to find one?"

So she storms out the door muttering something about how  it's all Mike Young's and Tom Paul's fault.

What was I going to say? She wouldn't have understood that once you go Behr, you can't go back.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"To mimic something is to copy something - which implies intent.  Point me to where the Good Doctor wrote about mimicking clouds in his bunker work and you just may have a convert.  Otherwise the story has a shakey foundation.  In any case, why do we need stories like this to justify/expouse on a man's work?  Can't the work itself stand alone without any sort of legend to help prop it up?"

Sean Arble:

Again, it's just fine by me if you and your wife want to nay-say some of the great old stories of golf course architecture. One of them is that one about mimicking clouds in the bunker look of CPC.

Telling that story isn't really about justifying or exposing a man like Mackenzie's work as you seem to suggest. It's much more about learning about the real talent of people like those great bunker-making Irish guys who basically made up the amazing "American Construction Company".

As a matter of fact they made those bunkers, not Mackenzie. Perhaps you don't care about the detail of stuff like that but I do.  

By the way, my humor is just fine and I doubt I need a lesson on word definitions.

It seems to me you and your wife are getting a bit didactic. Please tell her I think landscape architecture is a wonderful thing and she should stick to just that by all means.

[TEPaul]

"Mike/TEP -
Funny you should mention me and Behr.
Just last Saturday morning I was sitting on the porch reading Max Behr, doing line of charm drawings, calculating indirect taxes, getting into a real nice metaphysical frame of mind, when my wife pads up to me in her garden boots and says "I sure could use a man around the house."
"I agree," I said. "Where are you going to find one?"
So she storms out the door muttering something about how  it's all Mike Young's and Tom Paul's fault.
What was I going to say? She wouldn't have understood that once you go Behr, you can't go back.
Bob"


Bob:

Please, please, PLEASE, tell me that's a true story and that you didn't make it up.

Give Betsy my love, and tell her again I think she's the greatest, as you already know.

There's nothing I wouldn't do for her and if she really does want a man around the house tell her I'll have one in the mail for her before the weekend.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

Unfortunately, it's only about 10% is true. You will be able to figure out the true and made-up parts if I tell you that I spent that afternoon relocating azalea bushes and turning the compost pile. Brutal.

Another instance where being a wise acre didn't pay.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Thanks for the clarification, Bob. Ok, then, I'll just called the Post Office and tell them to take the man out of the mail.

By the way, you're probably wondering why I'm on here at home rather than at Saucon Valley where I told you I'd be for the next two days.

The Pa team had a cozy dinner in the middle of Saucon Valley's course at Villa Pazzetti restaurant that the club owns. This thing just may be the most unique "halfway house" in golf and one of the most unusual restaurant settings (smack dab in the middle of really beautiful golf course) in the world.

Anyway, we all left at the same time. The parking lot was pretty dark. I yelled at two guys who were going back to the Bethlehem Hotel where I was staying last night and tonight because my navigation system was showing two choices that I was not sure about. They told me to just follow them. At that point one of the team members cut in front of me. So I followed what I thought was the car of the two guys out of the course. We started out at 10 miles from the hotel by my Nav system. We got 12 miles way, then 15, then 20 and then 30. So I pulled up alongside their car to ask them what the hell kind of wild goose chase they were leading me on and it was another team member who was obviously heading home to Philadelphia.

I had no idea where I was at that point so I reprogrammed the system for home and here I am.

This is what happens when one gets old and dumb and blind.  

And don't any of you smart-asses dare mention anything about stuff like red wine.