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Bill_McBride

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Best Short Par 3
« on: September 27, 2007, 05:58:06 PM »
Until I went to Royal County Down to see the Walker Cup, I thought the best short par 3s in the world were probably #7 Pebble Beach, #11 Pacific Dunes, #8 Troon (Postage Stamp which I haven't seen), or #11 Old Course although it's a bit longish at 170 medal tees.  #8 Old Course doesn't thrill me that much.

But now I've seen #7 at Royal County Down and there is a new "Best Short Par 3."  Here's a photo from their website that doesn't do the hole much justice but it's all I can find for now:



Here's a better photo from Ran's profile here on GCA.com; it's a better photo but still doesn't give a clue about the challenge faced by the golfer to hit a perfect short iron:



The hole is just 145 yards from the tips but is a real bugger.  It was playing a bit downwind to a green not as firm as usual as Northern Ireland had quite a rainy summer going into September and the Walker Cup.

The front of the green is blind - see the photo - as there is a nasty bunker there and thick native grass.  The pin just sticks up there.  Only about 30% of the green is pinnable, as the back 1/3 falls off sharply down a steep slope and the left side does the same, only into a deep bunker at the bottom of that slope.

The effective target area is about the size of a bathtub, just short and right of the pin.  There is a rocky hillside just right of the green that falls off all the way down to the 13th tee far below.

During the Walker Cup, there were many shots that looked very good in the air but were maybe 2 feet too long or 2 feet too far left.  These took a bounce and then began trickling toward and then accelerated down the slopes into very difficult up and down territory.  The shots that stayed on the green were rewarded by birdies in many cases.  The best shot was a near hole in one by the US' Colt Knost, who hit the pin on one bounce and the ball stopped 3" in front of the hole.  Then his opponent knocked in a 10'er for birdie, great half!

We sat through four sessions - morning fourballs and afternoon singles, Saturday and Sunday - in the bleachers behind the green.  It was quite a sight and it's now my favorite short par 3 anywhere.   Although #7 at Pebble....... ;)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 12:46:13 PM by Bill_McBride »
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Marty Bonnar

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2007, 06:04:21 PM »
Uncle Bill,
your delightfully arcane, not to mention rather whimsical, use of the word 'bugger' in this context, has me positively tittering into my wine glass this evening! ;D

Thanks for making thursday evening, more, special...! ;)

I bet, somewhere in Scotland, there HAS to be a hole called 'Wee Bugger'!!!!!

FBD.
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Bill_McBride

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2007, 06:06:41 PM »
What's that old line about two countries separated by a common language?  ;D
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wsmorrison

Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2007, 06:15:01 PM »
In my opinion, the best short par 3 in golf is the 11th at Shinnecock Hills

Tee shot (courtesy of Craig Disher)



A view from the left side (courtesy of Tommy Naccarato)

« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 10:03:32 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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Bill_McBride

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2007, 06:19:08 PM »
Wayne, I heard that hole was actually the world's shortest par 5!
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Mike Wagner

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2007, 12:18:26 AM »
These holes look outstanding!  Cypress' 15th needs to be mentioned here.  
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David Stamm

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2007, 12:29:08 AM »
Some that I like that haven't been mentioned,


3rd at Ojai
15th at Spyglass
15th at Pasatiempo
8th at Rustic Canyon
12th at Stone Eagle
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Jon Spaulding

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2007, 12:35:50 AM »
I'll go ahead & nominate the easy one....

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Jim Nugent

Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2007, 01:42:20 AM »
No one has brought up 17 at TPC Sawgrass.  I personally don't like the hole much (from afar), but it gets a lot of love on this website.  
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Jesse Jones

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2007, 01:47:20 AM »
Pine Needles #3
Teeth of the Dog #5
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 01:48:22 AM by Jesse Jones »
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Mark_F

Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2007, 02:29:59 AM »
Wayne,

Could you please provide a few words on why this is such a fine hole?

Can far left pin positions use the bank to the side?

How many different pins has a portion of the flag hidden from the tee?

Are front pins different from back pins?
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Mark Pearce

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2007, 04:35:35 AM »
Another very, very good one which flies a bit under the radar is the 9th at Silloth on Solway.  Ran has a coupleof pictures in his profile but my IT skills are sufficiently woeful that I can't post them here.
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Andrew Mitchell

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2007, 05:13:46 AM »
Sean

You beat me to it!

Another one I've always liked which flies under the radar is the 8th at Royal Aberdeen.
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wsmorrison

Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2007, 06:38:03 AM »
OK, even though it is bound to bring on the heat, I think the 15th at Cypress Point is absolutely stunning, BUT...  What's with the unnecessary mounding behind the green and to the right and left with the superfluous bunkers?  No course or architect is beyond criticism and this is an example of the criticism I have for MacKenzie.  

Please do not tell me that this sort of work ties in to the natural surroundings.  The mounds look fake and serves to disconnect the work from the natural environment.  I'm sure someone on here is going to mention the Boer War or something but all those mounds and bunkers do is frame the dimensions of the green.  The green site and the fronting bunkers are beautiful.  But the rest of the green complex is downright lousy.  In nature would you have bunkers on either side of a fairly abrupt mound as on the left?  

MacKenzie did this sort of thing a fair amount.  It had to be systematic and some concept motivated him.  What is the point to framing the green so often and with such unnatural looking features?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 11:42:06 AM by Wayne Morrison »
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wsmorrison

Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2007, 07:06:15 AM »
I'd be delighted to try and answer your questions.  First, here is a photo and drawing that may help you to understand the hole a bit better:

At the time of the course opening



Final plan



Quote from: Mark Ferguson on September 28, 2007, 02:29:59 AM
Wayne,

Could you please provide a few words on why this is such a fine hole?

This par 3 is an excellent example of Flynn's  placement of a green on the edge of a ridge line with the resulting falloffs on three sides that demand an accurate aerial approach shot.  This is an exacting form of shot testing.  The hole thus sits in a natural setting exposed to the wind with a skyline green.  One other feature you can determine is the brilliant diagonal along the right front of the green.  That diagonal is not clearly apparent from the tee and to play along the right side of the green requires an additional club for pins tucked behind the middle bunker.

Can far left pin positions use the bank to the side?

Only the front left portion of the green can utilize the left to right slope.

How many different pins has a portion of the flag hidden from the tee?I believe all of them did.  The tee was raised a number of years ago for practical and not strategic reasons (there was excess fill from another project and the tee sits near a road).  The tee is going to be lowered back to the original level.

Are front pins different from back pins?

As with most greens, they are different.  Back pins are easier because you hit to the middle of the green and putt uphill.  Front pins bring the bunkers into play a lot more.  It is tough to figure out the wind effect and those bunkers are not easy to recover from.  You might notice that the front of the green was extended forward of where it is today.  There was an unpinnable false front that made the distance perception shorter than it played.  The club has undertaken a green expansion program and the green will be extended somewhat over the next few years.

Mark,
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 09:45:42 AM by Wayne Morrison »
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2007, 07:52:55 AM »
Colin Montgomerie nominates this hole:




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Adrian_Stiff

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2007, 08:09:12 AM »
My vote UK - 8th @ Troon, 7th Pebble (world)
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Dan Boerger

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2007, 08:36:47 AM »
 
I really like the look of the skyline green at Shinnecock. Among the best short par 3's I've played recently are:

13 Merion
2 Walton Heath (New)
4 Gulph Mills
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Paul_Turner

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2007, 09:12:07 AM »
5th at Royal Worlington and Newmarket gets my vote.  There's no hole like it.  

Nearby 10th at Brancaster would be a good one too.
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Jeff Loh

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2007, 09:43:07 AM »
#2 at Prairie Dunes
#16 at Sleepy Hollow (after gil reno-though they should be able to restore the green)
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Paul_Turner

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2007, 09:46:20 AM »
5th at Casa de Campo is a great one.  Dead flat and dead scary.
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Greg Holland

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2007, 10:36:32 AM »
Where does the 10th at Pine Valley fit into this discussion?
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2007, 10:57:30 AM »
Quote from: Wayne Morrison on September 28, 2007, 06:38:03 AM
OK, even though it is bound to bring on the heat, I think the 15th at Cypress Point is absolutely stunning, BUT...  What's with the unnecessary mounding behind the green and to the right and left with the superfluous bunkers?  No course or architect is beyond criticism and this is an example of the criticism I have for MacKenzie.  

Please do not tell me that this sort of work ties in to the natural surroundings.  The mounds look fake and serves to disconnect the work from the natural environment.  I'm sure someone on here is going to mention the Bohr War or something but all those mounds and bunkers do is frame the dimensions of the green.  The green site and the fronting bunkers are beautiful.  But the rest of the green complex is downright lousy.  In nature would you have bunkers on either side of a fairly abrupt mound as on the left?  

MacKenzie did this sort of thing a fair amount.  It had to be systematic and some concept motivated him.  What is the point to framing the green so often and with such unnatural looking features?

Wayne,

Nice catch, you see the same thing on the bunkers behind 16.  I have always felt that Mackenzie, more than any other golden age architect, felt that he needed to spice up the surroundings with his additions to nature.  I see it as a desire to justify your fee during a time when many owners questioned the need to hire an architect at all.  He was the first in a long line of hey look at me architects that felt it was about them more than the player or nature itself.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 10:58:45 AM by John Kavanaugh »
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Bill_McBride

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Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2007, 11:02:37 AM »
Are all of these holes under 150 yards?  That's my definition of a short par 3.

Most of MacDonald's Short par 3s, and even #15 at Cypress barring a real blow, are tough birdie, not so tough par.  Hit the green, 2 putt, keep moving.  Most of the other holes you guys have submitted are pretty much the same.  Hit the green, 2 putt, move on.

#7 at Newcastle, by contrast, is a truly severe test.  I'm not kidding about the bathtub sized target area.  Anything outside that target was down the hill behind, or down the hill in the bunker left.

Now Wayne's hole does look terrifying.   :o  How long is that hole?
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wsmorrison

Re:Best Short Par 3
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2007, 11:11:45 AM »
John,

We agree!  It is bound to happen once a year or so  ;)  I don't get the love-fest for MacKenzie especially as he goes so overboard with mounds and bunkers around greens.  Mr. Natural?  Hardly.  Nobody but us seems to care though.  He is so thoroughly revered on here and can do no wrong.  Well, none of them were perfect.  Someday I'll begin a discussion about what Flynn did wrong  ;)

Bill,

The 11th at Shinnecock Hills is 158 yards.  It can be terrifying even at such a short distance.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 11:12:43 AM by Wayne Morrison »
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