Are we part of the problem?

[Phil Benedict]

[quote author=Jon Wiggett

But seriously, I know what your getting at and I am not saying use old clubs for tournaments just playing some of the classic courses with them really would seem to me to enhance the experience.

I think this is an ok sentiment but I don't get to play classic courses that often, and when I do I want to see how my game measures up.  That means using equipment that I am currently comfortable with.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jon - you have a good point there!

 

But... I also don't think playing classic courses with older equipment makes them any more fun... at least not for me.  The game remains hard enough for me using modern equipment.  Let's just say that if I require a Tour Edge Exotic hyper-titanium 3-metal to get across CPC 16 (as I did the other day), I'm gonna have to hit across to the Isthmus of Moriarty if all I have are persimmon woods.  And that can't be seen as more fun.

Interestingly though, I did make it across with a persimmon 4wood when I was 17 years old... hmmmm... perhaps never say never?

It's an intriguing thought anyway.  I guess if one plays classic courses all the time - such that SCORE also doesn't matter that much - than yes, using old equipment might in the end net out as more fun.

But if it's my one time at SFGC, or Olympic, or the other famous classic courses around me... I can't see handicapping myself like this.  I want to know what I can really do.

TH
ps to Phil - great minds, my friend!  

[Jon Wiggett]

The game remains hard enough for me using modern equipment.  Let's just say that if I require a Tour Edge Exotic hyper-titanium 3-metal to get across CPC 16 (as I did the other day), I'm gonna have to hit across to the Isthmus of Moriarty if all I have are persimmon woods.  And that can't be seen as more fun.

Interestingly though, I did make it across with a persimmon 4wood when I was 17 years old... hmmmm... perhaps never say never?

Tom,

isn't it also about challenge? For me I would get much more enjoyment out of taking on CPC 16 as an almost unreachable par 3 and making par than popping a 3 wood across. I mean if easy = more fun then why not play from the forward tees? But do you play from the reds or do you go off the back? Isn't that a contradiction?

[Tom Huckaby]

(as I did the other day),

OK, everybody's thinking it, so I'll fricking say it:

fine, Huck, rub it in....

LOL
Hey, you have to hand it to me for waiting nearly three full days.

 

I have to report:  Rick Shefchik came so close to acing the hole my heart nearly stopped... I mean that ball rolled right past the hole, moving very slowly.  

And no, this wasn't done with older equipment.

 

[Jon Wiggett]

I have to report:  Rick Shefchik came so close to acing the hole my heart nearly stopped... I mean that ball rolled right past the hole, moving very slowly.  

And no, this wasn't done with older equipment.


No Tom,

was it with his warp drive shafted, double oversized 80° lob wedge

[Tom Huckaby]

The game remains hard enough for me using modern equipment.  Let's just say that if I require a Tour Edge Exotic hyper-titanium 3-metal to get across CPC 16 (as I did the other day), I'm gonna have to hit across to the Isthmus of Moriarty if all I have are persimmon woods.  And that can't be seen as more fun.

Interestingly though, I did make it across with a persimmon 4wood when I was 17 years old... hmmmm... perhaps never say never?

Tom,

isn't it also about challenge? For me I would get much more enjoyment out of taking on CPC 16 as an almost unreachable par 3 and making par than popping a 3 wood across. I mean if easy = more fun then why not play from the forward tees? But do you play from the reds or do you go off the back? Isn't that a contradiction?

I never said easy = more fun.

And that's just it, Jon - the game is plenty of challenge with modern equipment, at least for me.  If it were truly easy, I'd see your point. But this game is far from easy for me.

So using old equipment remains for me a fun change of pace, but nothing more.

You should be happy I at least see it as a fun change of pace, and keep the old clubs in playable shape!  That puts me way ahead of 99% of the golfing world.

 

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

I am sure like all of us you don't find the game less challanging with the modern gear and maybe I have digressed a little from my original point which was.....

[Tom Huckaby]

.... to ask if we are a part of the problem.

Well... like was posted already, if we are, we're a tiny part, and even if all 1500 of us immediately reverted to hickory and used nothing but, it wouldn't make a lick of difference in this great big world of golf.

But I guess a simple answer would be:  YES.

TH

[JESII]

Huck,

Do you realize I covered all of your positions on this thread in replies 1 and 3 in a mere 14 words?

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck,

Do you realize I covered all of your positions on this thread in replies 1 and 3 in a mere 14 words?

OH yes, oh yes I do.  But heck, once I decided to answer the actual question, I only used about 40 myself.  The remainder was used on trying to explain what you meant - and I absolutely got - to Jon.

 

[Phil Benedict]

Another variation on what Huck is saying about competing.  Golfers want to improve against the standards we have set for ourselves, which is based on recent performance with our current equipment.  Whenever I play my number 1 objective is to play well, even more than win the match although I care about that too.

When I played with hickories it wasn't a real round because I had no chance to compete with my own standards with modern technology - it almost wasn't real golf, and I'd probably feel the same way about persimmon or balatta.

[JESII]

I have a theory that wedge play, chipping, pitching and putting would be easier with a balata than today's rockets, so to your point Phil, I think I could try to compete with my best scores on my home course from the regular tees...I'd think the distance difference might be too great from the back tees.

[Tom Huckaby]

Phil - I concur with that as well.  My hickory rounds sure as hell don't get posted - they truly aren't real golf.  They are fun, for sure... But again, just as a change of pace.

And since one does want to compare to his standard, one has to play a LOT of golf to allow for this... I don't.  Thus the hickory "rounds" tend to amount a few stolen holes here and there.

Of course the answer to this is to play ALL one's golf with old clubs.  But then we're back to JES's so eloquently asked question... "was nothing at stake?"....

[Tom Huckaby]

I have a theory that wedge play, chipping, pitching and putting would be easier with a balata than today's rockets, so to your point Phil, I think I could try to compete with my best scores on my home course from the regular tees...I'd think the distance difference might be too great from the back tees.

JES - none of that is easier with hickory irons - oh my, far from it.  Yes, balata ball is easier to spin and softer... but good lord are those knifey niblicks tough to manage.

Perhaps when it comes to wedges, some fine old Wilson staffs are as good as anything or better then what's made today....

But I defy Tiger freakin' Woods to make consistent contact with some of the niblicks I have.

TH

[Phil Benedict]

Here's a little anecdote about my hickory round, which was at Mid Pines.  I couldn't hit the woods at all, because the shaft was so whippy everything went way right.  So I was reduced to using an iron off the tee, which was fine because we were playing the whites.  I could hit the two-iron (or whatever the equivalent hickory is called) a little over 200-yards.  On the 10th hole, a 500-yard par 5 from the blues and maybe 480 from the whites that I had reached in two from the blues the day before, I hit 2-iron, 2-iron, 9-iron and two-putted for a par with the hickories.  I got as much satisfaction out of playing the hole this way for a par as I did making birdie with my regular clubs.  

I think if technology had never advanced beyond hickories I might enjoy the game just as much as I do with modern equipment.  But the genie's out of the bottle.

[Ken Moum]

But I defy Tiger freakin' Woods to make consistent contact with some of the niblicks I have.

TH

One theory, to which I subscribe, is that we aren't getting the "good stuff" to play with these days.

There was certainly some version of the Tour Van back in the day, and the best players managed to get their hands on the best hickory, and best heads.

I have several niblicks, and the best of them is nearly a match for my Eye2 BeCu L wedge around the greens.

It's even more true of the woods. They varied widely in quality, and I suspect that a whole lot of the ones around now in good condition survived because they were so pitiful that no one could hit them.

Ken

[Tom Huckaby]

KM:

The BEST of hickory niblicks match up just fine to today's clubs - I too have one that's a damn fine implement.  But procuring those is exceedingly difficult.

As for woods, I think you nailed it.  But I also think that even the world's best hickory wood personally used by Bobby Jones and kept in absolute mint condition would still be useless against the standard house model Ti wood obtained at Sports Authority...

[Rick Shefchik]

Jon

Nobody likes to admit it, but nearly every person on this board who complains about technology is part of the problem and a hypocrite to boot.  I have said all along that its a very simple choice to make and nobody needs the USGA to roll back tech to make the decision.  Either you believe tech is bad for the game and you make personal choices to do something about it OR you are fueling the problem - in which case I don't want to hear the whinging because at best its  insincere.  

Sean,

I profoundly disagree. Huckaby has hit it on the nose -- when we compete with other golfers, we must either decide to be "pure" for purity's sake and nothing more, or play the same game our opponents play.

I can hold two seemingly contradictory opinions -- that modern equipment has not been good for the game (and particularly for the golf courses), and that I can and will use equipment that gives me a chance to be competitive with other players -- with no guilt or confliction whatsoever.

Rick

To me its black or white - anything else is just an excuse to eat your cake and then complain that it wasn't your favourite.  If the game is being destroyed this can only be decided on a personal level because the game means different things to different people.  If it is a personal decision of whether or not tech is mucking up the game for oneself then the solution is there.  We may not like the choices on offer, but thats life.  The bottom line is that you are either solving the problem for yourself or you aren't.  Blaming the USGA, manufacturers or whoever because some of the fun has gone out of the game is a position I have no time for.  

Ciao

Sean,

This is where you are missing my point: I am not complaining (or "whinging") that the fun has gone out of my game. I'm enjoying golf more than I ever have before. The three-wood that I hit to the 16th green at CPC earlier this week was the most thrilling shot of my life. At 55 years of age, I'm not sure that shot would have been possible without my semi-modern equipment (my Callaway 3-wood is about 10 years old.)

When you read a post by me or perhaps others on this site saying modern equipment is not good for the game, we're saying that golf courses are being lengthened in a fruitless effort to allow perfectly good golf courses to stay ahead of the very tip-top of the elite players on earth. I don't enjoy watching pro golf nearly as much as I used to, because, I believe, modern equipment in the hands of a highly trained pro has turned the PGA Tour into bomb-and-gouge instead of shotmaking.

But that's certainly not true for my game. I'm not overpowering any courses. Truth be told, I'm not exactly padding the salaries of the equipment CEOs, either; my driver is four years old, my irons are 15 years old.

So let me be a little more precise: I think modern equipment has  needlessly lengthened some great golf courses, and is bad for the pro game, in terms of my interest level. I am blaming no one for taking the fun out of playing the game, because playing the game is still the most fun I can have with my clothes on.

[Dan Kelly]

...playing the game is still the most fun I can have with my clothes on.

It might be the most fun you could have with your clothes off, too.

I wouldn't know -- but I'd guess *someone* out of our 1,500 "members" could tell us!

[Kalen Braley]

These kinds of threads always crack me up...

Perhaps a little poll is necessary?

Who still wears the same type of clothes they had 20 years ago?  OK OK, maybe this a bad opener for this crowd..
Who still drives the same type of car?
Who still uses the same computer from even 10 years ago?
Who still uses the same 21 inch TV and Betamax player?
Who still used the same "block" style cell phone?
Who still uses slow mail to write someone a letter?
So why should we still use the same clubs?

If you think we still should, then you are clearly a luddite and shouldn't be using this new fangled stuff like the internet and a computer to talk to each other....

[paul cowley]

Good points Kalen.

[Dan Kelly]

I can hold two seemingly contradictory opinions -- that modern equipment has not been good for the game (and particularly for the golf courses), and that I can and will use equipment that gives me a chance to be competitive with other players -- with no guilt or confliction whatsoever.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald (who, so far as I know, never nearly aced the 16th at Cypress Point -- with either hickory or Callaway)

[Jon Wiggett]

[ I don't enjoy watching pro golf nearly as much as I used to, because, I believe, modern equipment in the hands of a highly trained pro has turned the PGA Tour into bomb-and-gouge instead of shotmaking.

But that's certainly not true for my game. I'm not overpowering any courses. Truth be told, I'm not exactly padding the salaries of the equipment CEOs, either; my driver is four years old, my irons are 15 years old.

Good point about the pro's and something that I have noticed before. The advancement in clubs/balls has certainly helped the low handicapper (5 and better) but not necessarily the higher guys. I am maybe guilty of superimposing the advantages of the low handicapper on to the higher handicaps.

I do know however at 20, when I was playing almost full time, bashing I don't know how many hundreds of balls a day I was averaging 240 yards off the tee. These days I'm out there at 270 which used to be drive of the week.

[Bill Shamleffer]

These kinds of threads always crack me up...

Perhaps a little poll is necessary?

Who still wears the same type of clothes they had 20 years ago?  OK OK, maybe this a bad opener for this crowd..
Who still drives the same type of car?
Who still uses the same computer from even 10 years ago?
Who still uses the same 21 inch TV and Betamax player?
Who still used the same "block" style cell phone?
Who still uses slow mail to write someone a letter?
So why should we still use the same clubs?

If you think we still should, then you are clearly a luddite and shouldn't be using this new fangled stuff like the internet and a computer to talk to each other....

I am still wearing some of my dad's clothes that are over 40 years old.

My car is 14 year old.

I stopped using my laptop for writing and went back to writing on paper.

My TV is 10 years old.

And I do not own a cell phone.

The computer and the internet, even with all the junk, are great inventions.  But other than medicine and science, there are very few "improvements" to the goods we use on a daily basis that truly have made our lives better.

I have a theory that in the last 250 years only five general areas have improved the lives we lead:
1. Advances in medicine.
2. Ability to forecast weather.
3. Improvement to construction to allow homes and buildings to better protect us from the environment.
4. Ability to cheaply produce books so that all people can afford to obtain almost any book.
5. Improved agriculture.

If one wanted to live in the time of Thomas Jefferson, or even back to William Shakespeare, I think the above 5 items might be the only things you would miss.

There are SO many things in our world that have been improved or invented that really do not make our life better.  Mostly they are just interesting and different.

[Tom Huckaby]

...playing the game is still the most fun I can have with my clothes on.

It might be the most fun you could have with your clothes off, too.

I wouldn't know -- but I'd guess *someone* out of our 1,500 "members" could tell us!

You remain very astute, Dan.
Yes, someone could answer this.  But I'll never tell.