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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #75 on: September 27, 2007, 12:02:58 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the support, and well said. I recall a discussion here a long time ago about how the ODG could write that they were against blind shots, and yet they managed to show up, either because of tough sites, or who knows, maybe every once in a while they had the same feeling many of us do here - as in "why not try something different every once in a while?"  We will never know, really.

RJ,

I considered that you were being provocative. No prolemo there.  I don't think I am defensive.  As per above, I think I just read those quotes a little differently than most here, usually seeing that they were reacting to a situation or comment (why do all books by ODG start by questioning the wisdom of the greens committee?  How many modern gca's know that feeling?) rather than setting out the ten commandments or something.

I like quotes from books that actually say something.  One of my faves is Thomas, because he will say something very straightforward like putting fw chipping areas behind long par 4 greens because a long miss is superior to a short one.  

Saying "I am very concerned about where the ball lands and what it does after" doesn't really tell me much about architecture, or what Tillie did about his concerns.  I surmised that in addition to hazard placements, and green angles, that he might have tipped his greens up slopes to one side of the fw or the other to help stop shots (as I would) better from that side.  My only point is that this isn't as mystical a concept as some here would think, or imply from his non specific quote.

As to overall greens design, hey, they were good.  But they each had a pattern. As I once explained to Brian Phillips, Colt and Allison in particular affected my green contouring thinking.  But again, it was a simple concept - while KN always put the green surround mounds on inside green curves, CA put them on outside curves, giving a better rolling edge.  When I study Ross, Mac, Tillie, etc. they all have their own versions of this but all generally have a pattern to their greens.  

I think it was to make them attractive and gently rolling for their day, the same thing we are trying to achieve today with flatter slopes.  (I don't recall any gca writing that a ball should roll of the green on a regular basis)  I still seriously doubt that they designed to place such a premium on being below the hole, as now happens when tournament green speeds occur on old greens. I think the upslope was to help stop shots, based on what I read from their quotes and see in their work.  

So please, if you tell me that I am missing their genius, please tell me in a specific way that I can incorporate in my architecture - like they had little internal bumps, or their slopes came two thirds the way across the greens, etc.  Telling me I miss their genius without saying why isn't contributing to anyone's gca education.

BTW, I appreciate all the authors who study these guys life and works.  I study their works too, and like the back story.  I am not sure that those authors have more historical context.  While they probably have studied more cousres of one particular gca, I have the benefit having been in the arena, as it were, which gives me a different perspective than that of a writer or historian only.  Whether better, I guess I don't know, but it is different, and that clearly comes out in my views as compared to the gca buffs.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #76 on: September 27, 2007, 12:06:41 PM »
From the Washington Times...

 Who could have imagined that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would meet his match in the Ivy League?"

"Mr. President," President Lee Bollinger of Columbia told him, "you exhibit all the signs of a petty and cruel dictator." And how about this: "When you come to a place like [a university], it makes you simply ridiculous. The truth is that the Holocaust is the most documented event in human history." Or this: "You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated."




"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

John Kavanaugh

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2007, 12:11:57 PM »
From the Washington Times...

 Who could have imagined that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would meet his match in the Ivy League?"

"Mr. President," President Lee Bollinger of Columbia told him, "you exhibit all the signs of a petty and cruel dictator." And how about this: "When you come to a place like [a university], it makes you simply ridiculous. The truth is that the Holocaust is the most documented event in human history." Or this: "You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated."


That is a strange coincidence.  I did have a Carly Simon moment when Bollinger said "You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated." It seemed like something some smarty pants had said to me before.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 12:20:29 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2007, 02:04:02 PM »
Iranian President AHMADINEJAD:
"In Iran, we don't have homosexuals, like in your country. We don't have that in our country. In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I don't know who's told you that we have it."

"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2007, 02:17:34 PM »
Jeff,

If you take the contract for a gof course, you take it for the entire course...if serendipity strikes and you leave, untouched, a little mound out there somewhere that makes someone think that is the best little mound in all of golf and helps to make that hole the best hole in all of golf, you get the credit for it...we cannot sit here today and blow it off as simply as..."he couldn't possibly have thought about that little mound way back then, he was only on the property 5 times..."


JESII,

No doubt the gca gets the credit.  I didn't say I was blowing anything off, did I?  Nor do I care that some here find little features to be so charming or personally important.  That's the great thing about architecture.  

At the same time, I think credit and what actually went on in the designers mind aren't necessarily the same issue. I believe that the GA gca probably left that little mound  without thinking much at all about it because his budget didn't allow extraneous grading.  Nothing more, nothing less.

If future golfers now declare that its the best mound in all history, so much the better, but again, its them attributing qualities to it that the original gca didn't necessarily do.  His "core values" to use current terminology was to save money, or maybe even preserve nature.  Both can be considered genius to be sure. I'm certain that there are some little mounds right in or around greens that were carefully planned and field crafted by Tillie or Ross (PH No. 2, for example) as a feature to affect play.  But, the realities still are that for most courses designed by both of them (or Mac), they didn't - couldn't - spend that much time on site getting those little details that close.

I still wonder how Mac got the results he did on his whirlwind trip to Australia, for example.  He somehow taught the field guys (who were quick learners) his general principles or patterns of green molding and they did great.  Did his plans show a lot of mystical details on that? My reading of them again says no, despite the great results.

So, its hard to generalize and it would be far better to discuss individual greens on a subject like this, assuming the first discussion was whether that green had changed since the original design. And, even then, it would be hard to know exactly what was said and thought, even if plans are there, old photos are there, etc.  Its fun to contemplate, but I'll never know if my provocative theories are right or not, barring a seance!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Gib_Papazian

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2007, 02:17:49 PM »
Dammit, I wish people would not interject politics into this website as I find it inappropriate and needlessly inflammatory.

Let's stick to architecture. There is no place in this discussion for bashing world leaders or making sport of sexual orientations.

 ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2007, 02:21:18 PM »
Dammit, I wish people would not interject politics into this website as I find it inappropriate and needlessly inflammatory.

Let's stick to architecture. There is no place in this discussion for bashing world leaders or making sport of sexual orientations.

 ;)

Gib,

Here hear!!   ;D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2007, 05:03:14 PM »
Definitely not interested in diagraming a sentence with you again anytime soon...but the guy was saying (through an interpreter) that the phenomenon of homosexuality does not exist in his country...because they execute known homosexuals

Jeffrey Prest

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2007, 06:23:17 PM »
Participants here take this gca thang WAY too seriously in general. I'm not saying that any gca, moi included, shouldn't give his/her all when actually designing a course.  Just that we should break our backs analyzing it here. Just go play, dammit!

Bless you, Jeff. I thought it was just me. Must be something about the name...

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2007, 10:31:50 PM »
HMM...guess I could start by saying :
 many of the features the ODGs are considered genius for creating...they did not even know they had created them....

many of the ODGs considered their architecture as a part time job

most of this ODG stuff is a myth and with the stuff being written today will continue to escalate....

Donald ross was a dork.....



 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Sweeney

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2007, 03:54:50 AM »
Iranian President AHMADINEJAD:
"In Iran, we don't have homosexuals, like in your country. We don't have that in our country. In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I don't know who's told you that we have it."



I'd love to know the question that was asked of him because, to me, it's not clear on its face from this quote that he was saying that Iran doesn't have homosexuals.  He said that they don't have homosexuals like in the US.  That's open to a little bit of interpretation.

Try these:

In Iran, we don't have music, like in your country.  

In Iran, we don't have entrepreneurs, like in your country.

In Iran, we don't have air travel, like in your country.

How would you interpret these statements?  That they don't have music, entrepreneurs or air travel?

Or was he saying that the "phenomenon" of our homosexual community was different than theirs?   Or in my examples, that their music is different, their entrepreneurs aren't as aggressive and that air travel is rare there?  

There's also an interpreter involved, too, don't forget.

I don't see how the man could have said they don't have homosexuals there, period, given the fact that a schmoe like me knows their word for it here in Chicago.  I do see how he could be saying that the "phenomenon" is treated differently there.

Of course, you won't get a thought like this from the mainstream media.  They just want the sensational headline and want to run with it before anybody thinks it through...


Shivas,

Come on. He avoided the original question and was brought back to the question. The audience in the clip I saw was laughing at the statement and he kind of smirked for a second. I have some Persian friends here but he said what he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/24/AR2007092401042.html


 Here is the transcript:

___________________________________

QUESTION: Mr. President, another student asks -- Iranian women are now denied basic human rights and your government has imposed draconian punishments, including execution on Iranian citizens who are homosexuals. Why are you doing those things?


AHMADINEJAD (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Freedoms in Iran are genuine, true freedoms. Iranian people are free. Women in Iran enjoy the highest levels of freedom.


We have two deputy -- two vice presidents that are female, at the highest levels of specialty, specialized fields. In our parliament and our government and our universities, they're present. In our biotechnological fields, our technological fields, there are hundreds of women scientists that are active -- in the political realm as well.


It's not -- it's wrong for some governments, when they disagree with another government, to, sort of, try to spread lies that distort the full truth.


Our nation is free. It has the highest level of participation in elections, in Iran. Eighty percent, ninety percent of the people turn out for votes during the elections, half of which, over half of which are women. So how can we say that women are not free? Is that the entire truth?


But as for the executions, I'd like to raise two questions. If someone comes and establishes a network for illicit drug trafficking that affects the youth in Iran, Turkey, Europe, the United States, by introducing these illicit drugs and destroys them, would you ever reward them?


People who lead the lives -- cause the deterioration of the lives of hundreds of millions of youth around the world, including in Iran, can we have any sympathy to them? Don't you have capital punishment in the United States? You do, too.


(APPLAUSE)


AHMADINEJAD (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): In Iran, too, there's capital punishment for illicit drug traffickers, for people who violated the rights of people. If somebody takes up a gun, goes into a house, kills a group of people there, and then tries to take ransom, how would you confront them in Iran -- or in the United States? Would you reward them? Can a physician allow microbes symbolically speaking to spread across a nation?


We have laws. People who violate the public rights of the people by using guns, killing people, creating insecurity, sells drugs, distribute drugs at a high level are sentenced to execution in Iran.


And some of these punishments, very few, are carried in the public eye, before the public eye. It's a law, based on democratic principles. You use injections and microbes to kill these people, and they, they're executed or they're hung. But the end result is killing.


QUESTION: Mr. President, the question isn't about criminal and drug smugglers. The question was about sexual preference and women.


(APPLAUSE)


AHMADINEJAD (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): In Iran, we don't have homosexuals, like in your country.


(LAUGHTER)


We don't have that in our country.


(AUDIENCE BOOING)


AHMADINEJAD (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I don't know who's told you that we have it.


(LAUGHTER)


But, as for women, maybe you think that being a woman is a crime. It's not a crime to be a woman.


AHMADINEJAD (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Women are the best creatures created by God. They represent the kindness, the beauty that God instills in them. Women are respected in Iran. In Iran, every family who is given a girl -- is given -- in every Iranian family who has a girl, they are 10 times happier than having a son. Women are respected more than men are.


They are exempt from many responsibilities. Many of the legal responsibilities rest on the shoulders of men in our society because of the respect, culturally given, to women, to the future mothers. In Iranian culture, men and sons and girls constantly kiss the hands of their mothers as a sign of respect, respect for women. And we are proud of this culture.

________________________


The comments were so absurd that it was erased from the Iranian release of the speech:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20070926-1422-iran-ahmadinejad.html

Sorry for the off topic and one of my few political post on GCA, but I was waiting for him to say, "we don't have it..............not that there is anything wrong with it!"

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