Benefits of a non-windy site...

[JESII]

I found an interesting thread deep in the archives that covered the wide held belief (mine included) that wind is the key...The focus of the thread was Pine Valley being on a non-windy site and that the one flaw in the course is that a top player is not asked to control his trajectory out there because the wind will likely not effect a misjudged shot.

In thinking about the greens at PV, I would not think they could be built on a windy site due to their severity, but countless times, people on here talk about the greens at National and St. Andrews being every bit the equal to Pive Valley in that regard.

Is there some characteristic among those three sets of greens that sets Pine Valley apart in being more playable because of a lack of wind?

Are there any architectural benefits (or advantages...) to building a course in a secluded area as opposed to more exposed sites?


I'll find the thread shortly and link it here...

[JESII]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=12202

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

I don't see the putting surfaces at PV being incapable of existing on a windy site.

They wouldn't be able to be maintained at 11 or 13 on a windy site because the slopes, combined with those speeds and the wind would make them unplayable.

You may recall Arthur P Weber's treatise on slope and speed, wherein balls became unstopable when speed and slope were combined.  The introduction of the wind would serve as a catalyst for accelerating the utlimate result .... unstopability.

I find the greens at PV rather large targets, with a few exceptions, such as # 12

There are some pretty good slopes on the putting surfaces at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, yet, because of the control exercised with respect to green speeds, those greens are playable.

It's my belief that PV, in a windy environment would be an even better golf course, but, you wouldn't be playing on surfaces brought to ridiculous stimps.

[Jim Franklin]

Holes 8 and 17 have the smallest greens at PV and rightfully so. They are the two shortest par 4s there. I do not believe PV would be playable if it was more prone to the wind, at least at their current speed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Holes 8 and 17 have the smallest greens at PV and rightfully so. They are the two shortest par 4s there. I do not believe PV would be playable if it was more prone to the wind, at least at their current speed.

Jim,

You can't add that caveat.

PV would be playable if it was prone to more wind.
It has wide fairways and rather large greens.

I played PV in the last few years when the greens were stimping at about 6, which is too slow, and I've played them when I thought they were over the top.

There is a happy medium, and the wind factors into that, not to mention common sense, which isn't so common.

[wsmorrison]

Depending upon the direction of the wind, trees do not necessarily have a nullifying effect on wind.  It can even funnel the wind and cause unforseen bursts of wind.  Given the shot height that modern clubs and balls create, you can elevate the ball into wind that you do not feel on the ground.  This causes problems in judgement.  I don't think treed sites are necessarily anti-wind.  It provides a different sort of effect, but one that remains interesting.  Playing Pine Valley is not like playing without wind.  The corridors are wide and some of the green sites are relatively open, especially 2.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

While PV's not devoid of wind, it's not a windy site.

[Jon Wiggett]

My experience is that links courses, which are very windy, often have some of the severest sloping greens that you find. Such greens are of course much harder to play when playing fast but that has nothing to do with the wind. Indeed I would suggest that windy sites lend themselves to sloping greens which usually are best played to along the ground. I would suggest that small greens that are surrounded by bunkers and rough are not suited to windy sites but then again the 7th a PB proves me wrong on that one.

One note is that fescue/browntop dominated swards usually allow the ball to lose speed more gradually than the fatter bladed creeping bents which also tend towards grain a feature that fescue greens don't.

[wsmorrison]

Wayne,

While PV's not devoid of wind, it's not a windy site.

Of course it is not devoid of wind.  There is no such place.  I don't know your definition of a windy site, but there's wind there and the trees don't nullify it.  In fact, they provide added effects.  The land around Pine Valley is very flat, so even if there is only a little wind, it is in play.  You wouldn't consider Merion a windy site, but the wind plays havoc there and there often is plenty of it.  OK, it isn't links like wind, but often enough both courses have 1 to 2 club wind.

[Peter Pallotta]

JES
I don't have any answers for you, but a question instead, hopefully related.

I wonder if what sets the PV greens apart is not the greens themselves but (as you yourself explained/described to me in some posts a while back) the variety of approach shots that are encountered/demanded over the course of a round.

That is, even in the absence of any strong winds, hole after hole PV requires the player to think about the green while he’s still on the tee, i.e. to think about what kind of approach shot he wants left.  And from what I’ve read, few courses in the world require a player to do that kind of thinking and make those kind of choices in more varied and challenging ways than does PV over its 18 holes; especially given the trouble present around the greens.

In short, maybe PV does not ask for the “trajectory control” that windy sites do, but it seems to ask for every other imaginable control and skill in a golfer’s bag.  

I wonder if that’s one of the advantages of PV’s “non-windy” site, i.e. it gave Crump the freedom to create an unceasingly challenging (and creative) test of golf -- including its great and severe greens -- without having to worry that the course would become unplayable because of the wind.

What do you think?

Thanks
Peter

[JESII]

Peter,

That's one of the directions I was hoping this would go...unfortunately I have left this thread un-chaperoned for a while and will have to again for a short bit, but...

In that link from an old thread I took objection to the notion that PV does not require trajectory control...I believe it requires it in height and shape, so you are correct...I think Crump was able to be a bit more 'aggressive' with his greens (several forced carries) than he might have on a site right on the water.

I also did not need this thread to focus on PV, but rather, along the lines of what you brought into it...are there any advantages to knowing the site will not be too windy from an architects perspective?

Be back in a while...

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

I think Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes are the perfect study for your thread.

I'd consider those sites windy, and as such, I maintain that both the architect and the superintendent had to make accomodations for the wind in their respective disciplines.

Despite Wayne's perspective on the impact of winds on PV and Merion, I think wind was deeply discounted by the respective architects.  I won't say that it was a non-factor, only that I'd view its impact as "de minimis".

With courses such as Pacific Dunes and Sebonack, Tom Doak would be an ideal person to comment on the extent of the impact of wind on his designs, on windy and non-windy sites.

[JESII]

Pat,

Thanks, and I would not disagree at all. I hope to fertilize a topic here that might draw Tom's (and Mike Y, Jeff B, Paul C, Ian A, Mike N, Jeff M, Brian P and any other professional architect I might have missed that is on board here) attention to this.

If I may restate the very base question of this thread...Are there any advantages (or opportunities might be better) that an architect can take advantage of on a site deemed to be less than highly exposed to wind?

I don't ask this in a manner which challenges the belief of "nae wind, nae goff". I agree with that. But, there are times and places that just don't get the wind that some places do, and are there things a GCA can do in that circumstance he cannot do on the beach?

Also, I would love to get into the conversation of trajectory requirements on approach shots at PV...I imagine the sum total compares well with any single day at the best beachfront courses in the world from the perspective of a scratch golfer hoping to shoot a good score...as that linked thread asks...

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

Fairway width is certainly an issue.

On a very windy site, fairways must be wider.

Sites without wind can tolerate narrower fairways, thus routing and overall acreage may be affected.

As to your question about trajectory requirements at PV versus very windy sites, I'd take exception to that.

Very windy sites must consider angles to attack and ball flight in addition to trajectory.

It may be a difficult to impossible exercise to compare a tangible (PV) with an intangible (an unidentifiable phantom beachside golf course)

In order to simplify matters, let's use Seminole for comparison's sake.

To present my example, I'll offer as Exhibit A: # 17 at Seminole.

A non windy site has the following advantage.
A golfer can aim at the intended target.
On a very windy site, that may be impossible.

And, that creates additional problems.

What golfers have the courage and the conviction to aim toward the water and the confidence that their shot will be guided by the wind to the target.

Psychologically, does the golfer have what it takes to plan and execute a counterintuitive shot, a shot that's fraught with disaster should either the wind abate, or the golfer fail to execute properly ?

It's an additional element that's totally absent on a windless site.

The wind places far greater demands, on the golfers mind, imagination, shot selection and execution.  That pressure doesn't exist on a windless site.

And, let me add the following.
On very windy sites, achieving balance AND a swing uniterupted by the wind, is next to impossible.
I've seen good golfers fail to execute because the wind didn't allow them to achieve proper balance, or because the wind forced swing errors.

I know that you're a fan of PV, and so am I, but, windy to very windy sites introduce additional facets to the game, facets that include pressure and difficulty, mental and physical, that don't exist on calm sites, irrespective of the difficulty of the golf course.

[JESII]

No argument on that last point Pat, I agree completely.

#17 at Seminole is a great example of a hole that goes from good when it is relatively tame to unbelievably challenging for anyone in the world when the flag is up (and all the conditions that go with it).

However, I am not looking for examples of holes that are easy with no wind and difficult in the wind...I am simply wondering a couple of things...one of them being... Are there any benefits to working on a non-windy site?

Also, the trajectory requirements at Pine Valley are, as you know, dictated by the undulations on the green regardless of any wind being present. When there is wind, this requirement is only enhanced...

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

Another example I thought of was Shinnecock during the Opens, when it's testing the best players in the world.

On very windy days the golf course plays radically different and exponentially more difficult than on calm or mild days.

As to the advantages, off the top of my head I would imagine that it would be easier to design on a windless site than on a site swept by wind, especially if there weren't any prevailing winds.

Picture # 8 green at PV where high winds prevailed.
And, for purposes of discussion, let's assume that one of four distinctly seperate "PREVAILNG winds swept that hole.

1  In your face
2  with you
3  crossing left to right
4  crossing right to left

Do you think that the hole/green/greensurrounds would have to be amended to accomodate any of those winds ?

Perhaps only # 1 would allow the hole to remain as is.
The other three would most certainly be cause for alterations.

Your thoughts ?